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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    wgdc P, I and D tables
    haha ok , so for boost request drops those are the tables to look at? bit overwhelming...
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    haha ok , so for boost request drops those are the tables to look at? bit overwhelming...
    not sure what you mean by boost "request" tables? the wgdc PID tables are there to dial in boost "control". They are used to deal with things such as boost overshoot, boost rise towards target, etc given a reference signal (in our case a boost target)...

    If you'd like to learn and understand how you might be able to go about doing this here's a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_con...troller_theory

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    mine works just fine besides boost request drops which are not AT related .
    You mean where the boost target drops 2psi randomly and comes back up? I've seen that before on Cobb maps and have no idea what it is. I suspect maybe a conflict in some table not available. The JB4 makes logging the Cobb much easier IMHO. You can use map 4 to log DMEBT, boost, and duty cycle, by rpm and gear, and get a good feeling for what is going on with the Cobb PID tuning.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You mean where the boost target drops 2psi randomly and comes back up? I've seen that before on Cobb maps and have no idea what it is. I suspect maybe a conflict in some table not available. The JB4 makes logging the Cobb much easier IMHO. You can use map 4 to log DMEBT, boost, and duty cycle, by rpm and gear, and get a good feeling for what is going on with the Cobb PID tuning.
    yeah exactly that ! will try logging on jb4 map 4. I know the car runs fine and has no issues on jb4 :-)
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    Could you email it to me? srplaske (at) gmail () com, in fact send both maps (the beta and the tweaked beta) if you don't mind.
    Sent.

  6. #31
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    This thread makes me happy. I have my own dynojet, but I am scared to death to tune on this car for some reason. I have tuned a lot of cars, but for some reason this one makes me leery. I am taking myself to school on it now though.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JHOOPS2 Click here to enlarge
    This thread makes me happy. I have my own dynojet, but I am scared to death to tune on this car for some reason. I have tuned a lot of cars, but for some reason this one makes me leery. I am taking myself to school on it now though.
    It's really a very easy car to tune. Having AFR and ignition closed loop reduces 75% of the work. The last big headache is the dutycycle and PID but using the Cobb base maps as a start will get you close on that.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  8. #33
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    So where do you think the best place to start making changes to the PID tables is? P Factor?

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    P is the easiest, but i would take a look at the base map first. I think some of the oscillation have to do with adaption range. Last time I looked at some of the WGDC logging values, it didn't make much sense. Base value, after PID, and actual didn't seem to correlate to me. DZ, you been able to figure all this out? Still haven't been able to check out all the ATR buzz yet Click here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    So where do you think the best place to start making changes to the PID tables is? P Factor?
    Really suggest trying to read the link from wikipedia above to understand what PID is about. I'd set the load table low so you don't get into trouble with too much unwanted boost overshoot, but, shouldn't be a huge issue as the DME will close throttle on you anyways if that were to happen.

    If you feel that boost target is being reached fast enough for your liking, depending on where you have oscillations, I'd concentrate efforts in that range and leave P alone. "I" is where I suspect you may have too large of a value causing osciallations/instability if you're talking about THAT particular problem.

    Really not 100% sure on this as I've never had to dial any oscillations out of my boost curve but I think it should be a good start.

  11. #36
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    Just looked at the wgdc tables. The integral table ("I") isn't likely to be causing issues I don't think. Values are almost at zero. I'd probably leave that alone as well and move over to the D table. There are two of them, D-Factor and D-Factor multiplier. I'd look at the D-Factor first I think and take it from there but at the same time I haven't yet had experience dialing in the PID with these tables so take it with a grain of salt.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Sent.
    Thanks!!!

    I moved all of the WGDC tables over to my ATR IJE0S, and it WORKS! I can actually enjoy WOT now!! Many thanks Click here to enlarge

    This is what I was dealing with
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Excellent! Click here to enlarge

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    So where do you think the best place to start making changes to the PID tables is? P Factor?
    Think of PID as: P= how fast it makes a change aka how "hot" it is, I= how many times it looks at the output in a given time and D basically acts like a brake when the setpoint is overshot. Really simple way to look at PID but it works. You almost never adjust the I, usually make larger incrimental changes to the P. P is the most often changed parameter. Usually smaller incrimental changes to D and the second most changed parameter. Probably about as clear as mud huh? We use a lot of PID controllers at work but rarely need to adjust them once set. They CAN be a pain to setup the first time as well. Luckily we do have Cobbs maps to refer to.

  15. #40
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    In my case the D values were basically cut in half towards 0 on either side of a zero value (-7 became -3.5, +5 became +2.5). P factor remained unchanged. For anyone with IJE0S I can send both the 401 OTS map and the WGfix map I made from lulz's I8A0S beta map (originated by cobb as a beta oscillation fix).

    Still could use work, I'd like to get you PID savvy guys looking at my before and after graph, along with the before and after maps to see what did what and what could use more work... hope that made some sense!

  16. #41
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    I always thought you could get any oscillation issues protuned out, now that ATR is available it can be done by the end user. This is going to get fun, I'm anxious to see what numbers people get with the custom maps people come up with.
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks!!!

    I moved all of the WGDC tables over to my ATR IJE0S, and it WORKS! I can actually enjoy WOT now!! Many thanks Click here to enlarge
    Glad to hear it helped out! Looks like some fine tuning would still help out but definitely looks way yay better.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e90TiAg335i Click here to enlarge
    Think of PID as: P= how fast it makes a change aka how "hot" it is, I= how many times it looks at the output in a given time and D basically acts like a brake when the setpoint is overshot. Really simple way to look at PID but it works. You almost never adjust the I, usually make larger incrimental changes to the P. P is the most often changed parameter. Usually smaller incrimental changes to D and the second most changed parameter. Probably about as clear as mud huh? We use a lot of PID controllers at work but rarely need to adjust them once set. They CAN be a pain to setup the first time as well. Luckily we do have Cobbs maps to refer to.
    Awesome man thanks!

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    The oscilation issues seem to be when actual boost meets request. Most of the Cobb logs ive seen fall short of load target and potentially boost target also. Cobb may have purposely done this in the base mapping, and also changed PID so not to meet target due to this possibility. Stock logs meet targets of course. Probably an issue with high boost, varying WGs. Compare the WG tables stock versus others.

  20. #45
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    I believe load targets aren't being met (on stock turbos) because the boost ceiling limiter is nailed down low (and at this boost limit I'm nowhere near target load, see the graphs above). At this point the PID kicks boost back down. I'd tend to think the car will ride the boost and/or the WGDC limit when target load is higher than both limiters, which is what my OTS are setup for.

    In other words, to ride the target load you might get dicey and set the boost ceiling and various WGDC tables to allow for it, which I don't have the experience or knowledge to attempt with the spaghetti like intertwining tables!

    Thoughts from dzenno or any of you other phantom beta-ATR havers?

  21. #46
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    Flylows explanation on the other forum makes perfect sense. The WGDC is capped at 57 for my maps (havent modified it from OTS), and the DME will do everything in its power to meet targeted load, within the caps. The problem comes from load based targeting vice specific boost targeting. I suspect once ambient temps drop we will begin to hit to load targets, or atleast get very close. If you think about the way that load based tuning works, it really goes against the grain of what i am used to. To make maximum power for the given conditions, you would want to run MORE boost as ambient temps drop. As the temps drop the DME would actually hit its load targets easier and run LESS boost. The opposite is true for when it gets hot, it tries to run more boost to hit load targets, which is not good when you are basically maxing out the stock turbos already.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    not sure what you mean by boost "request" tables? the wgdc PID tables are there to dial in boost "control". They are used to deal with things such as boost overshoot, boost rise towards target, etc given a reference signal (in our case a boost target)...

    If you'd like to learn and understand how you might be able to go about doing this here's a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_con...troller_theory
    I would rep you like it was my job for that link if I could. I've gone over that a few times now, but my non-engineer brain is still having a little trouble comprehending it. I suspect most of the issues I had on the track with overboosting (30FE) can be figured out in the PID tables.

    Seriously, thank you for this link.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Flylows explanation on the other forum makes perfect sense. The WGDC is capped at 57 for my maps (havent modified it from OTS), and the DME will do everything in its power to meet targeted load, within the caps. The problem comes from load based targeting vice specific boost targeting. I suspect once ambient temps drop we will begin to hit to load targets, or atleast get very close. If you think about the way that load based tuning works, it really goes against the grain of what i am used to. To make maximum power for the given conditions, you would want to run MORE boost as ambient temps drop. As the temps drop the DME would actually hit its load targets easier and run LESS boost. The opposite is true for when it gets hot, it tries to run more boost to hit load targets, which is not good when you are basically maxing out the stock turbos already.
    Yes, that is correct. COBB caps wgdc at a certain calculated value which is based on configuration settings. 57% is one of the visible settings in ATR. However, wgdc has authority to move up from there a little further based on boost error and load as you'll see from the logs. For instance during spool the wg will close more than 57% based on the wgdc P value which will ramp up the actual boost curve towards requested quickly. Once there the I and D take over along with the other couple wgdc tables (adder, ceiling, d factor multiplier).

    If you set your load high enough the wgdc limiters in place will only go as high as they're allowed which in a lot of cases will clamp actual load to a certain lower value than what is being requested. I'd like to assume that this is to prevent unwanted throttle closures due to wastegate variances. In any case it works really well at least on mine and a number of other cars.

    As I and many others have alluded to before (and now is starting to be proven) some cars will require some adjustment to the PID to eliminate any possible boost/wg oscillations.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Skyhart Click here to enlarge
    I would rep you like it was my job for that link if I could. I've gone over that a few times now, but my non-engineer brain is still having a little trouble comprehending it. I suspect most of the issues I had on the track with overboosting (30FE) can be figured out in the PID tables.

    Seriously, thank you for this link.
    Cool Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    sooo much good info is flowing now !!!! learning a lot!
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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  25. #50
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    @jhershorin has made a great post about it on the PTF blog, here's a copy of the content:

    Source: http://blog.protuningfreaks.com/2012...vs-actual-load

    =========

    COBB ACCESSTUNER RACE (ATR) TUNING TIPS – REQUESTED LOAD VS ACTUAL LOAD

    June 26, 2012 by jhershorin

    Tuning the N54 is now completely possible thanks to www.cobbtuning.com and their Cobb AP handheld. Their OTS (Off-the-Shelf) maps are a great start for your N54 powered BMW car. With the release of AccessTUNER Race you can now custom tune your car to perform like it never has before. Some other tuning platforms give you tables or sliding scales to modify, but Cobb has taken it to another level giving you access to over 70 tables in the DME. These tables will allow you to make the power you have been craving.
    The Cobb AP uses load targets to control boost. This may be new to some of you who have either never tuned a car in the past, have tuned but only with hardware that utilizes boost targeting systems, or have dabbled but still struggling to feel comfortable changing how your car is controlled. If you fall into any of these categories or just want a refresher – here comes Load Tuning for boost 101.
    A hot topic on the forums has been people noticing that their Actual Loads do not hit their Requested Loads. Common sense tells us that we are requesting a value so the car should be able to hit that value. It is not that straight forward. Cobb has done a lot of the work for us and set up a very safe and reliable situation for us to tune our cars and not have to worry about over-boosting or damaging components.
    This is what the main load table looks like:
    Click here to enlarge
    I have entered 190 as the load target throughout my RPM range and tapered it off slightly up top as the turbos simply leave their efficiency range. When I flash this table to the car and go log I see that my Actual Load never really hits 190. I spool up and peak at about 182 and then it drops and holds in the mid 170s. The reason for this is that the car is referencing many different limit tables, WGDCtables, PID settings, etc. This is NORMAL. The car will run the minimum boost to hit the Requested Load based on all of the calculations and limiting tables / “nannies”. The stock WGDC tables are setup to run our stock turbos to the limits of their efficient range so you can make a lot of power without changing the boost control setup (i.e. I am not hitting my Requested Load but my car is running strong and doing exactly what it should).
    One of the things that comes to mind at this point is “How do I know that my car is doing what it is supposed to?” When I log I monitor many different things. To make sure that I am running the boost I want to run I log Boost Req Abs and Boost Mean Abs. These two parameters are the boost the car is requesting and the boost your car is making. The values are in addition to standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi. When you see the car requesting 32.97 in a log that is really only requesting that the car generate (as a reading on your boost gauge) 18.27psi and NOT 32.97psi. If you track what the car is requesting and what the car is actually making you should expect to see that the values are very close. In the lower to middle range of the RPMs you will see that they are very close and as you reach the upper RPMS (depending on how much boost you are requesting) the difference may be slightly larger. We expect that the small stock turbos will taper off a bit in the upper RPMS and if you are requesting too much there may be more of a variance in actual vs requested. If you have large differences in these two values after fully spooling you may have a small leak somewhere.
    There is significantly more you can do with the boost tables through ATR, however for stock turbos following what I have discussed here is a great start and more than enough to get you on the path to trapping in the high 117+range (with the required supporting mods). You will need more than just a strong load curve to get there but this a great start to reaching your goals.
    You guys can always reach me here or on the forums. For now – open up ATR and get started!! If you need help or want a tune you know how to reach us.
    Jake Hershorin

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