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  1. #601
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    @The Ghost, not really any benefit honestly. I was actually attempting to rule out something i was seeing post shift using NLS (sustained rich condition).
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  2. #602
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    so just received our cobb, flashed to stg1 agressive, all nice and good

    got ATR, having a look through all the tables

    and

    ihavenoideawhati'mdoing

    have read as much as i can, and it's all mumbo jumbo to me.. is pretty much the only way to learn to make teeny tiny changes, log, and check?
    boop

  3. #603
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    so just received our cobb, flashed to stg1 agressive, all nice and good

    got ATR, having a look through all the tables

    and

    ihavenoideawhati'mdoing

    have read as much as i can, and it's all mumbo jumbo to me.. is pretty much the only way to learn to make teeny tiny changes, log, and check?
    If you tell us what you are trying to do, we can assist. We as a community still have a long way to go before we understand the whole picture, but making power is typically not a problem.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  4. #604
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    My ATR was just updated to 1.1.1.0-7352. What was updated/corrected in 7352?

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    07 335xi | RB's with all the trimmings!
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  5. #605
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MileHi335xi Click here to enlarge
    My ATR was just updated to 1.1.1.0-7352. What was updated/corrected in 7352?

    Click here to enlarge
    Last post in this thread..
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...P-Tables/page2
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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  6. #606
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    If you tell us what you are trying to do, we can assist. We as a community still have a long way to go before we understand the whole picture, but making power is typically not a problem.
    just generally learn how it all works

    I'm trying to get my head around the fact what the 'load target' values mean?.. is there some formula behind the seemingly arbitrary values? (170, 190, 200 etc.) - My first encounter with an ECU that has such a complex boost targeting strategy lol... Or do most people not really 100% know, other than setting certain values makes the DME want to target certain boost values (is there a table or something for this, apart from the fact it's calculated off all sorts of sensors?.. Or is it roughly an ECU by ECU basis?)

    is what 'load' you set to target pretty much a 'guess and check' (log) situation?, and reactively modify the WDGC/PID tables to counter any issues in getting the correct load/boost actual?

    most of the tables otherwise look pretty self explanatory (ign timing, fuelling, how the 'spool mode' stuff works), except VANOS, 10 tables for all different conditions, with huuuuge variance - and where's the 'zero' point.. and what's the maximum +/- degrees the VANOS varies by?

    basically, as much as i know the DME has a ridiculous amount of safety in it, and what changes i do make at least to begin with will be teeny tiny ones, logged trial and error style... I like to know as much as possible to remove as much chance of mistake as possible aha
    boop

  7. #607
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    Load is based on a calculation involving MAF and RPM. The most basic way to look at it is more load = more boost. You can manipulate the boost/load relationship but to get started I recommend logging your OTS map and see how the relationship works as it. Also, "load target" works like "load limit." If you're just a couple points shy of hitting requested it doesn't necessarily mean there's an issue.

    As far as VANOS is concerned do not mess it beyond what the Cobb OTS maps do unless you have a very good understanding AND the car is on a dyno. Otherwise you're going to be chasing your tail.

    Also, read the "help file" several times and let it digest.
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    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  8. #608
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Load is based on a calculation involving MAF and RPM. The most basic way to look at it is more load = more boost. You can manipulate the boost/load relationship but to get started I recommend logging your OTS map and see how the relationship works as it. Also, "load target" works like "load limit." If you're just a couple points shy of hitting requested it doesn't necessarily mean there's an issue.

    As far as VANOS is concerned do not mess it beyond what the Cobb OTS maps do unless you have a very good understanding AND the car is on a dyno. Otherwise you're going to be chasing your tail.

    Also, read the "help file" several times and let it digest.
    so yeah, like i guessed, pretty much a log, review, modify, log, review, until you get it where you want? Wish it were a bit more of a precise, calculate-able exercise Click here to enlarge

    would like to know exactly what the relation is, i'm not a fan of arbitrary values haha


    And yeah, that's pretty much what i thought on the vanos stuff, don't mess with it until i have everything else down pat and a good test environment haha

    have read through the help file, strangely enough, it helped a bit lol


    thanks Click here to enlarge
    boop

  9. #609
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    I remapped VANOS sometime ago but never tried it. I'll review it again.

  10. #610
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    Here's the load calculation that ford uses currently, not sure how close this is to what BMW uses
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    MOTIV750, MOTIV P-1000 PI, MOTIV/FUEL-IT! low pressure fuel system, AEM EMS/COBB AP, Aquamist HFS-3, ETS FMIC, SPEC stage 3+ clutch/SS flywheel, BC Racing coilovers and VMR wheels wrapped in Hankook RS3s.

  11. #611
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    The reason why BMW uses load is because as the ambient air density changes (due to temperature and pressure), they want the car to perform the same. They want the engine to make 300 HP in Jacksonville and in Denver.

    If you look at the formula above (which I suspect if for an NA engine - see below), you see the calculated load is expressed as the ratio of air currently moving into the engine over the air that could be moving into the engine at at a given RPM, so it's a percent which has been referenced to air flow at STP (standard temperature and pressure). STP is usually referenced to 0C. The STP referred to above is actually SATP(Standard Ambient Temperature and Pressure), but I digress.

    The point is in an NA engine load will be 100% (1.00) when the current air flow is equal to the maximum possible airflow through the engine based on the air density and the engine's VE (airflow as a function of RPM as expressed above). For an FI engine load can be above 100% because the peak airflow is referenced to 29.92 in Hg absolute pressure (14.7 psi or 1 atm). The whole point of an FI engine is to raise the charge air pressure above 1 atm.

    Lets put some numbers into the formula above. In Jacksonville, lets say the ambient pressure is 29.92 in Hg and the ambient temp is 25C. Also for the sake of this example, lest say the maximum air volume is 100 cfm at red line. If we evaluate the bottom of the equation, we get a maximum possible airflow at peak RPM of 100 cfm. So if we move 100 cfm through this engine at peak RPM, the load will be 1 (100%).

    Let say we are in Denver at 25C and 28.92 in Hg. Evaluating the denominator give us a maximum possible air flow of 96.7 cfm at red line (assuming 100 cfm at red line at SATP) . So if our current airflow is 96.7 and the engine is at red line, the load is still 1 because the ambient pressure and thus the air density has dropped.

    If we go back to Jacksonville in the summer, and the temperature is 35C, the maximum possible airflow will be 98.3. So if we move that much air through the engine at red line, load will still be 1.

    The above example assume an NA engine where the ECU doesn't really have any ability to increase the current airflow beyond the operator opening the throttle plate more. In an FI engine the ECU has the ability to make more pressure and this can be used to increase load.

    Lets assume our FI engine still moves 100 cfm at red line at SATP (ambient intake manifold pressure!). If we move 135 cfm through the engine and the ambient conditions for pressure and temperature are 29.92 in Hg and 25C respectively, our load becomes 135%.

    We need to take a minute and remember the current airflow through the engine is a function of intake air pressure and temperature (the air's density). Also I suspect BMW does not correct the possible airflow through the engine for the ambient conditions. That would mean to reach a target load at air densities below what SATP would give us, we would actually flow less air through the engine. Our examples above illustrate this. This is exactly not what we want. We want to flow the same air through the engine to make the same power at some RPM regardless of atmospheric conditions. The way the engine does this is to produce more charge air pressure in reduced density environments. This allows the engine to flow 135 cfm regardless of atmospheric conditions. BMW has done extensive testing on not only how much air flows through the engine based on RPM and manifold pressure (the engine's VE), but also how much air (load) is necessary to meet it's specified torque output and thus power at a given RPM.

    The ECU will calculate an absolute pressure needed to force 135 cfm through the engine. This air pressure needed over the ambient pressure is the pressure ratio the turbo needs to provide. I believe this is what Boost Setpoint Factor is. Then the ECU reads the pressure and temperature in the intake manifold and using a table which relates those two variables to volumetric efficiency, it will calculate the current air volume. It will then adjust WGDC using a PID loop within the allowable range to correct the air volume (the load) to what is defined in your RPM to Load table in ATR.

    So in short, load corresponds to torque, and horsepower is (torque x speed) / 5252. It is not important to know exactly how BMW arrives at it's load values, it is just important to realize these load values correspond to the torque the engine produces and making more torque at some RPM means you will make more power.

    Also, I am not saying the load values are in cfm. They are most likely a percent of possible airflow at a given RPM at SATP due to the engine's VE. It just worked out that the percent and the cfm were the same in this example because I chose 100 cfm for peak airflow at red line.

    Don't get too hung up on targeting some charge air pressure. This is futile because as the seasons change, or when you change your geographic location, your boost pressure will change. Personally I like setting my loads to what's in the Cobb Stage 1 Sport + FMIC map. I actually decreased my load slightly in the first, second and third cells because I didn't really like the huge and sudden swell of torque. It's kind of a liability on the road. I feel these load values give a little more overhead for the turbos vs. the Stage 1 and Stage 2 aggressive maps. Turbos are expensive and I am not competing in anything. I just want my car to perform well.
    Eppur si muove.

  12. #612
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    wow thanks ajm8127

  13. #613
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    so if i'm understanding even remotely correctly.. given that theoretical engine, 100% load is 1 atmosphere of pressure at it's given possible flow rate (zero boost), 200 load would try to target 2 atmospheres PSIA?.. given that 100CFM @ 1 atmosphere would be 200 CFM at 2 atmosphere? (which in your examples will vary to 96.7cfm and 193.4, given atmospheric conditions)

    given current actual density, temperature etc... ? and obviously other real world factors which will stop it hitting targeted load, or slightly vary actual boost pressure (yes i know, target power/drivability rather than arbitrary numbers, it makes sense)

    thanks so much!

    that makes everything so crystal clear if so!.. so the N54 has it's own internal values all set as to what it can flow under what circumstances, and the load target tries to target a certain flow rate, which requires upping boost pressure under most circumstances?
    boop

  14. #614
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    I'm sure the DME can do a couple things to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine (VANOS, boost, throttle plate angle, etc.).

    Just because an engine flows 100 CFM at 1 atm that does not mean the same engine will flow 200 CFM at 2 atm pressure. Flow usually does not scale linearly like that. Look at a head's flow bench graph - the air volume begins to level off as a function of valve lift.

    We can say in most situations, except one where the flow through the engine is at its maximum possible (due to a physical constraint like head design, turbine housing size, etc.), increasing the manifold pressure will result in more air flow, which would relate to a higher load value. This is why we see such a strong correlation between load and boost. However, there are other factors that influence load besides boost. That is why boost can be somewhat variable for a given load.

    Another thing we have to remember is load is related directly to torque, but not to horsepower. What I mean is 200 load at 3000 rpm is not nearly as much air per unit time as 200 load at 6000 rpm. That is why you see turbos run out of breath at higher RPMs.

    Above all, don't chase the dragon. Every setup has it limitations. Be reasonable about what you expect from your engine. Very few people do instrumentation of the heat in the manifold (not the downpipes - the exhaust manifold) or back pressure in the manifold. Even fewer would measure shaft speed. These values can help you figure out when you are pushing the envolope and they can help you develop a reliable tune. BMW has done these things in their R&D process and come up with the N54 in stock form. When making such drastic changes to engine tuning (almost doubling output with mostly stock hardware!) you need to be aware there are physical limits, and taking the measurements and looking at the data can help you figure out when you're approaching one.
    Eppur si muove.

  15. #615
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    Thanks

    Yeah i meant in a perfect engine in magic theory land, rather than something real world re: 100>200 load.. just to help myself understand it to begin with, rather than the more complex reality lol

    Thanks again, this has given me a good solid baseline to jump in from Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    So this isn't working on 8.1? Why?
    @Josh@Cobb

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    What's not working? Shoot me an email

    josh.dankel@cobbtuning.com
    Josh Dankel
    ECU Engineer
    866.922.3059
    Click here to enlarge
    web | forum | blog | facebook | twitter | youtube

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    Guys... Anyone have any tips from experience, on what to do with the boost control tables making it more like the stock map? All I have done is scaled WGDC Base and my D factor multiplier is stock.

  19. #619
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Guys... Anyone have any tips from experience, on what to do with the boost control tables making it more like the stock map? All I have done is scaled WGDC Base and my D factor multiplier is stock.
    Can you elaborate a bit.
    You want to achieve higher boost than stock and at the same time be stock smooth?
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    Can you elaborate a bit.
    You want to achieve higher boost than stock and at the same time be stock smooth?
    Well yes, essentially. Maybe I should have asked what are the best tweaks you can make to optimize smoothness. I haven't played with ATR in awhile.

  21. #621
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Well yes, essentially. Maybe I should have asked what are the best tweaks you can make to optimize smoothness. I haven't played with ATR in awhile.
    Well that's what everyone is after. Is is not a single table you can change and make it smooth. You would have to log to see where is your issue so it can be adjusted. 99% of the time is due to overshooting boost which could be corrected by making small corrections to base table.
    If you decide to start messing with it, I'll suggest to:
    Don't mess with PID and before making any changes to base table, log:
    WGDC Base and GWDC after PID
    and make changes base on what you see there.
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Well yes, essentially. Maybe I should have asked what are the best tweaks you can make to optimize smoothness. I haven't played with ATR in awhile.
    Here is a simple and easy way without having to mess with the WGDC Base table ie PITA:

    On OTS Stage2 and up maps, revert to "stock" WGDC Base, revert back to "stock" WGDC Adder(airflow), calibrate boost control using "Boost Limit Multiplier" to get rid of TC, start with 2.300 value straight across first. So you will raise the value(s) till you start to get TC and then back off where you had no TC in the cell range. Adjust by 1 increment each flash

    The key here is to maximize your calibration of the the BLM table till there is no TC. This is a good starter map to build more power on if desired, then eventually you will get into other tables that can be discussed later after getting this part done and log review

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    guys
    i am new to the forum, new to the car (2010 135i N55) and haven't posted much here (nothing, admittedly).

    first, thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, what a load of information!!
    i spent the last night pretty much reading through the entire thread...

    although i have a N55, much of what has been discussed here is applicable to this engine, too. also, most of the engine control logic seems the same or at least similar.
    my car has a Wagner hi-flow cat, a BMW performance cat-back exhaust, Wagner FMIC and AFE intake.
    i installed a stage 1 V2.00 map before any modifications, the car felt marginally more powerful and after mods i switched to stage 2+sport V2.00 map.

    from that moment on, power and torque was way better, but i had massive TCs pretty much immediately after getting on it at around 2000 rpm and occasionally below 4000, above everything was fine, with much power and torque.

    so after ATR for the N55 was released, i started logging and editing my map, at first by adjusting the WGDC base map, which i had to scale down significantly in a certain area, which helped but didn't completely eliminate the TCs (which sometimes were 45%TPS).

    after reading this thread, today i started playing with the PID tables, changing both P and D factors, after which the car seemed much more pleasant to drive but still got TCs in the same areas as before.
    typically, immediately after going WOT at around 2000rpm, boost overshoots and causes the first TC, the boost drops significantly below requested value, then coming up once again, sometimes causing another TC, before smoothing out at around 3500rpm and afterwards everything is ok.
    act. load is typically well below req. load, it somehow seems the speed of the boost kicking in makes the DME close the throttle as a precaution.
    it seems, though, that making a couple of runs back to back alleviates the problem, while the first runs after some time seem worse (temperature related? IAT logged showed around 28 C, not much change there after some runs).

    now, while all my editing tables did bring improvements, i still cannot get rid of the oscillation and TCs, quite common in the N54, too, according to many questions in this thread.


    now the actual question:
    my car has about 75k miles. could it be i have a sticky waste gate?
    like, when i step on it, the DME requests a certain boost and sends the vacuum to the WG actuator. since the sticky WG is reacting slow, the boost overshoots, causing a TC, then boost drops (again, WG reacting slowly) and then rises again (2nd spike), after which the system "calms down", allowing for a smooth boost curve from there on.

    any thoughts? i don't want to screw up all tables (and losing power, i have scaled down the affected area below the values of the stock map) trying to achieve something that cannot be reached since there may be a hardware problem...

    thanks
    peter
    austria

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by syclone2032 Click here to enlarge
    guys
    i am new to the forum, new to the car (2010 135i N55) and haven't posted much here (nothing, admittedly).

    first, thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, what a load of information!!
    i spent the last night pretty much reading through the entire thread...

    although i have a N55, much of what has been discussed here is applicable to this engine, too. also, most of the engine control logic seems the same or at least similar.
    my car has a Wagner hi-flow cat, a BMW performance cat-back exhaust, Wagner FMIC and AFE intake.
    i installed a stage 1 V2.00 map before any modifications, the car felt marginally more powerful and after mods i switched to stage 2+sport V2.00 map.

    from that moment on, power and torque was way better, but i had massive TCs pretty much immediately after getting on it at around 2000 rpm and occasionally below 4000, above everything was fine, with much power and torque.

    so after ATR for the N55 was released, i started logging and editing my map, at first by adjusting the WGDC base map, which i had to scale down significantly in a certain area, which helped but didn't completely eliminate the TCs (which sometimes were 45%TPS).

    after reading this thread, today i started playing with the PID tables, changing both P and D factors, after which the car seemed much more pleasant to drive but still got TCs in the same areas as before.
    typically, immediately after going WOT at around 2000rpm, boost overshoots and causes the first TC, the boost drops significantly below requested value, then coming up once again, sometimes causing another TC, before smoothing out at around 3500rpm and afterwards everything is ok.
    act. load is typically well below req. load, it somehow seems the speed of the boost kicking in makes the DME close the throttle as a precaution.
    it seems, though, that making a couple of runs back to back alleviates the problem, while the first runs after some time seem worse (temperature related? IAT logged showed around 28 C, not much change there after some runs).

    now, while all my editing tables did bring improvements, i still cannot get rid of the oscillation and TCs, quite common in the N54, too, according to many questions in this thread.


    now the actual question:
    my car has about 75k miles. could it be i have a sticky waste gate?
    like, when i step on it, the DME requests a certain boost and sends the vacuum to the WG actuator. since the sticky WG is reacting slow, the boost overshoots, causing a TC, then boost drops (again, WG reacting slowly) and then rises again (2nd spike), after which the system "calms down", allowing for a smooth boost curve from there on.

    any thoughts? i don't want to screw up all tables (and losing power, i have scaled down the affected area below the values of the stock map) trying to achieve something that cannot be reached since there may be a hardware problem...

    thanks
    peter
    austria
    First, welcome.

    Regarding whether you have a hardware issue you might want to have someone look at it. It's tough to diagnose over the internet but you want to figure it out before messing with the tune and whatnot.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    sticky
    thanks for the reply.
    of course i will have a look at the hardware, my question was theoretical to some extent. but since i couldn't find any WG issues except for the occasional rattling, i may be on the wrong track.
    will compare stock map and stage 1 behavior next
    again, thanks
    p.

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