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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Er, Cobbs E92 has RBs. How u think they made those rb maps, on hopes and dreams? Click here to enlarge

    No, but there are no official compressor maps for the RB, are there? It's one thing to know what the turbo will do based on manufacturer specs, and a totally different thing to fiddle with parameters, log, adjust and try again. I am not saying its not possible, but having official documentation on what a turbocharger can do is a much better foundation for tuning.
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  2. #27
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    Waiting to see how long for the first e90 post "tooner" to blow an engine.
    It is certainly exciting news but until I see a Cobb vehicle custom tuned for max driveability, max power and smoothness over a piggy, I will hold my breath.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    My thoughts also. If the pros at Cobb can't seem to be able to dial in working maps for 6AT upgraded turbos, on their own software, I doubt end users will. But maybe I'm wrong...
    We have been testing with RB turbos on our shop car and also some user cars. The cars tune just fine, but the "issue" is that each car requires custom tuning as there is a bit of variance with the turbos. Therefore, we won't be able to provide an OTS RB turbo map, but custom tuning a larger dual turbo set up won't be an issue.

    Ian

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    I respectfully disagree. Having given it a decent look, the ATR gives you the ability to create your own values for pretty much anything you want. All you need to know is the correct compressor maps for the turbos (which neither RB nor ASR have provided thus far) and you can nail this down with good precision.

    Unfortunately, most RB and ASR turbo owners have absolutely no idea what are the EXACT compressor maps look like. They are all shooting in the dark and trying to make the car run good by logging it...
    Tuning within the DME's boost logic is just fairly complicated. You'll see what I mean when you start doing it. You can certainly get it done with enough effort assuming all the tables are present. But with a piggyback where you define the logic changes are more direct and you spend a lot less time trying to fool the system in to doing what you want. For example with a piggyback we can easily define a system to self tune the car on the road, including base wastegate duty cycle, base fuel trims, EGT compensation, etc, where to achieve the same self tuning ability on the DME level would be a major undertaking. On the other hand, we have to jump through major hoops to properly fuel a higher HP motor where with the flash maps its as simple as a few table edits. I think most hard core guys will eventually find piggyback boost + features are the jelly to flash map's peanut butter.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #30
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    Ian,

    You guys should create a "Cobb University" of some sort where interested parties can pay and attend training courses to use ATP and ATR for specific vehicles.

    Just a thought... Click here to enlarge
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  6. #31
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    This is a great milestone for the Cobb community! Will the software always remain free or is this a promotion?

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    T But with a piggyback where you define the logic changes are more direct and you spend a lot less time trying to fool the system in to doing what you want.

    Interesting choice of words Terry. It would seem (from your words) that a piggiback that modifies sensor outputs and literally LIES to the DME is more direct way of tuning... Hmmm..

    Yes, there are a lot of variables involved in direct DME tuning and I wholeheartedly admit that I am a complete newbie and have little understanding how this works. I guess from ease of use, a piggy back interface would be easier for the "lamer" in me.

    But as my knowledge increases, invariably, I would want to have DIRECT control over all engine parameters, something no piggyback can offer.

    So lets not "fool" each other on this one, shall we?! Click here to enlarge Lets all be happy about the fact that this very important tool is finally out in the hands of the community and lets see how things will play out.

    P.S.: I personally do not plan on modifying anything in the maps till the 4.02 OTS maps drop.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Interesting choice of words Terry. It would seem (from your words) that a piggiback that modifies sensor outputs and literally LIES to the DME is more direct way of tuning... Hmmm..

    Yes, there are a lot of variables involved in direct DME tuning and I wholeheartedly admit that I am a complete newbie and have little understanding how this works. I guess from ease of use, a piggy back interface would be easier for the "lamer" in me.

    But as my knowledge increases, invariably, I would want to have DIRECT control over all engine parameters, something no piggyback can offer.

    So lets not "fool" each other on this one, shall we?! Click here to enlarge Lets all be happy about the fact that this very important tool is finally out in the hands of the community and lets see how things will play out.

    P.S.: I personally do not plan on modifying anything in the maps till the 4.02 OTS maps drop.
    Whether you are doing tuning using a flash edit tool or a piggyback inevitably you wind wanting to fool the system in to producing the response you're interested in. With a piggyback of course you're inherently fooling the DME from the start. But the logic you apply on the piggyback end can be direct, assuming you have the ability to write code/firmware for the piggyback. With flash tuning you eventually want some logic or behavior that the DME doesn't inherently support, like perhaps absolute boost targeting, or 1st gear torque limiting, or progressive meth mapping, and wind up trying to fool the DME in to producing that behavior with various table edits. Until someone comes along with custom DME source that allows you to achieve that function more directly. I guess my point is unless you've tuned with both it's hard to have a proper context and open mind about both. I'm a fan of flash mapping but also have first hand experience with the headaches involved. I'd encourage you to take this awesome tool that's been made available to you and dive in!
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by COBB Tuning Click here to enlarge


    COBB Tuning is proud to announce the release of AccessTUNER Race tuning software for AccessPORT equipped BMW N54-powered vehicles. The AccessPORT is the only hand-held OEM ECU flashing, managing and monitoring device available for N54 equipped BMWs, and when combined with our free AccessTUNER Race software, the result is a groundbreaking, end-user-tunable engine management system with all of the sophistication and drivability inherent in the factory BMW ECU.


    AccessTUNER provides control of vital engine parameters to the user, such as; VANOS (both requested and actual), ignition timing, wastegate duty cycle, fuel tables, torque limiters, throttle control, rev limiters, speed limiters and many more. Over 70 tables in the DME have been exposed and are editable through AccessTUNER, giving unprecedented control of the factory BMW engine management system. Customizable data monitors let the tuner choose which DME channels are monitored to see how tuning changes impact the behavior of the engine.


    The software's built-in data logging capability can capture data from over 70 channels from the DME, including; individual knock voltage for each cylinder, timing correction for each cylinder, VANOS requested and actual, wastegate duty cycle for each bank, 9 different boost related monitors and many more. Data can be recorded simultaneously from multiple monitors across the entire rev-range, allowing detailed data analysis after a dynamometer test.


    3-D graphical mapping gives the user a comprehensive view of across three axis to evaluate where performance can be maximized. An integral dashboard shows user-chosen gauges to be displayed during the tuning process. The BMW AccessTUNER Tuning Guide is a great reference to learn more about how the BMW N54 DME operates and how changes to tables will impact engine performance.


    Data Logging



    Fuel Table



    Load Target Table


    Ignition Timing Table



    The COBB Tuning Off-The-Shelf calibrations work as a great starting point for custom tunes, so tuning from scratch is not necessary. Users can modify OTS calibrations and create multiple maps to accommodate different bolt-on parts, turbo-upgrades, fuel types, throttle response, environments, fuel economy, etc. Once tuning is complete, all of the custom maps can be loaded onto the AccessPORT so you can be ready for any situation with just the push of a button. In addition, maps can be shared with other AccessPORT tuned BMW N54 enthusiasts. This allows more experienced tuners to help out those just getting started in tuning, and allows groups of self-tuners to work together to pool their knowledge and maximize gains for all.


    With the unmatched features and convenience of the AccessPORT, COBB Tuning's exceptional customer support, and the addition of our comprehensive new AccessTUNER Race custom-tuning software, the true power of BMW N54 engine tuning has just been placed into the hands of the enthusiast!


    To get your free copy of AccessTUNER Race tuning software, please fill out our AccessTUNER Race Download Request Form. An email will be sent to you with a download link within an hour of submitting the form.


    As always, if you have any questions about the AccessPORT and AccessTUNER, or any other COBB Tuning products, please call us at 866-922-3059. Get up-to-date product announcements, sneak-peeks of upcoming products, and the latest COBB Tuning news through our COBB Tuning Mailing List. You can always be a part of the latest conversations with COBB Tuning by tuning in to our our facebook.com/cobbtuning and twitter.com/cobbtuning pages.

    -Gary
    Edited for formatting and promoted to the front page.

    Well done guys, well done.
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  10. #35
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    Classifying RB turbos as large aftermarket turbos is misleading. @Rob@RBTurbo has done an amazing job there to fit larger components into the stock units preserving EVERYTHING. Most importantly wastegate actuators/control.

    The trouble with tuning aftermarket turbos with the stock DME could come from wastegate control itself.

    Stock turbos have the wastegates fully OPEN by default. Then, the DME operates wastegate solenoids which are electrically operated (PWM pulsed) to allow VACUUM to go through to the wastegate actuator which in turn closes the wastegate sending pressurized air into the motor.

    Most if not all aftermarket turbos operate completely different out of the box. The wastegate is fully CLOSED by default. The wastegate actuator is BOOST operated (not vacuum like stock) and requires positive pressure to be applied to the wastegate actuator to OPEN the wastegate. This is a completely different operation from stock.

    If I had to tune aftermarket turbos (not RBs or TDs which are built using stock assemblies) I'd start with a basic manual boost controller (since as of right now, this moment, this type of aftermarket wg control simply isn't available with ATR). So I'd flash the car with the desired load targets for certain boost levels, timing, AFR. Fuel is closed loop so that we wouldn't have to worry about much. A manual boost controller (say a wastegate spring set to 20psi) will allow that turbo to spool to the SET boost as soon as it can given the engine's exhaust gases. If you model your load curve in ATR to match the boost response with the manual controller you could totally pull this off. Is it ideal? Of course not. Would it work, yes! Would I settle for this? No, maybe on a dyno to see where the setup stands Click here to enlarge If there was an overboost condition throttle would close and not allow additional boost to hit the motor.

    Next thing ask @Terry@BMS for the required electronics on the JB to control the wastegates using electronic boost control and wire in its independent boost control on top of the flash, making it into the G6 board Click here to enlarge

    Once that's all done, tuning would be easy as pie, proper control of fuel as well as timing through the flash, and boost through the piggy. Eventually, once Cobb cracks the boost control doors even more open down the road try to retune so the DME does everything all the while beating on the Vishnu's single ass LOL i kid i kid
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 06-21-2012 at 02:20 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #36
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    To run anything other than OEM style wastegates you need a piggyback running boost control. It has to pass back altered boost information to the DME for proper throttle management and then compensate for whatever tuning issues crop as a result of that fudging. Even with OEM style wastegates the flash mapping has a very difficult time with consistent boost control across varying conditions IMHO. It really has to be tuned well. I've seen some odd things with customer cars that I'm sure could be corrected manually with custom mapping but uncorrected cause them all sorts of headaches (30FF codes, 30FE codes, etc, not unlike JB3 type problems we had back in the day). The solution is a smarter adaptive boost control scheme which is hard to get from the DME.

    The G5 isolates the wasteagates from the DME output. The software just adds the OEM duty cycle back to the output as I prefer it on the tuning end at the moment for various reasons. In the future with a single turbo of course everything will change and the DME output will be mostly ignored unless it's indicating a reduced power mode.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    To run anything other than OEM style wastegates you need a piggyback running boost control. It has to pass back altered boost information to the DME for proper throttle management and then compensate for whatever tuning issues crop as a result of that fudging.
    Why? Why would this be needed if the ECU has proper boost and load tables in it? I am having hard time following this logic above.
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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Why? Why would this be needed if the ECU has proper boost and load tables in it? I am having hard time following this logic above.
    Because without OEM style wastegates/boost control the DME would be disconnected from the primary mechanism it would use to "hit" a given load target. And since advance, air/fuel, etc, are all mapped on DME load without an accurate load then many other things must be compensated for. Which would require a piggyback like the JB4. Click here to enlarge

    The easiest way to tune this setup be it twin turbos or a single is to use the flash to correct the lambda to IPW base tables (I don't see these in race yet), set the base air/fuel targets at OEM loads close to what you want, set the base advance curve at OEM loads close to what you want, and then let the piggyback run boost and fine tuning.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Because without OEM style wastegates/boost control the DME would be disconnected from the primary mechanism it would use to "hit" a given load target. And since advance, air/fuel, etc, are all mapped on DME load without an accurate load then many other things must be compensated for. Which would require a piggyback like the JB4. Click here to enlarge

    The easiest way to tune this setup be it twin turbos or a single is to use the flash to correct the lambda to IPW base tables (I don't see these in race yet), set the base air/fuel targets at OEM loads close to what you want, set the base advance curve at OEM loads close to what you want, and then let the piggyback run boost and fine tuning.

    Aaah yes. That makes perfect sense if we are talking about aftermarket turbos (non-OEM style). Of course you will need additional hardware and electronics to control a turbo with a wastegate that differs from stock, that much is clear.

    The conversation though was about RBs and ASRs which do indeed have OEM style wastegates and boost control. Were you referring to RBs or to single turbo conversions? ..because for RB's there should be no reason why tuning can't be nailed down with Cobb ATR or ATP if the compressor maps are well defined. Plain and simple.
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  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Aaah yes. That makes perfect sense if we are talking about aftermarket turbos (non-OEM style). Of course you will need additional hardware and electronics to control a turbo with a wastegate that differs from stock, that much is clear.

    The conversation though was about RBs and ASRs which do indeed have OEM style wastegates and boost control. Were you referring to RBs or to single turbo conversions? ..because for RB's there should be no reason why tuning can't be nailed down with Cobb ATR or ATP if the compressor maps are well defined. Plain and simple.
    For those of us with auto trannys, plenty of reasons.

  16. #41
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    I was referring to Dzenno's post on that reply, but there is no reason RBs can't be properly mapped with a flash tune alone. It's just going to be an awful lot of work to perfect. Would take tuning in maybe 10 tables. And then once perfected it may throw itself out of wack again during weather changes, etc. And given the lack of features like progressive meth mapping, in dash gauges, low gear boost reduction, on the fly tuning, etc, I predict most serious cars will take the path of least resistance and best results via a piggy+flash approach.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Edited for formatting and promoted to the front page.

    Well done guys, well done.
    Sticky,

    Thank you for the edit and front page location!

    Gary

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I was referring to Dzenno's post on that reply, but there is no reason RBs can't be properly mapped with a flash tune alone. It's just going to be an awful lot of work to perfect. Would take tuning in maybe 10 tables. And then once perfected it may throw itself out of wack again during weather changes, etc. And given the lack of features like progressive meth mapping, in dash gauges, low gear boost reduction, on the fly tuning, etc, I predict most serious cars will take the path of least resistance and best results via a piggy+flash approach.
    Agree that there is no reason why RBs can't be tuned with ATR to run right especially 6MT cars. 6ATs are a different story but its no different with the piggies on 6ATs. The only difference is yes, while in gear you'll be fine but the shifts will be so hard with full torque there that you'll be destroying that 6AT tranny in no time if you drive your car like you should.

    In terms of 6MT, there are already great Cobb maps for RB turbos and they work great on my car. For anyone looking into making them more aggressive its not a problem if you're willing to learn a thing or two about ATR.

    In terms of weather conditions its really easy to make the map behave like a piggy. Just set all the compensation tables to not compensate Click here to enlarge Then there won't be any deviations in hot/cold weather. But, that's not what I want out of my car and is definitely not the most ideal solution. You DO want to take into account all those compensations IF you're building a proper all around tune. Sure its not as easy as saying run 20psi lol but its doable, just takes time and takes one to be patient to make one
    Click here to enlarge

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    Got my first taste of playing with ATR, very good stuff. Amazing what a little bit of timing will do to wake up the OTS maps.

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    Dude... Facebook for some reason used this photo from my rss feed as the preview image for the article on the BimmerBoost facebook page: www.facebook.com/bimmerboost

    Click here to enlarge

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  21. #46
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    ROFL!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Got my first taste of playing with ATR, very good stuff. Amazing what a little bit of timing will do to wake up the OTS maps.
    how many extra degrees of advance did you use?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Dude... Facebook for some reason used this photo from my rss feed as the preview image for the article on the BimmerBoost facebook page: www.facebook.com/bimmerboost

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...732_5582-1.jpg

    Damn it...
    Click here to enlarge
    Loe P.
    B8.5 Audi S5 3.0"T" - GIAC stage II ECU / GIAC DSG TCU / AWE-tuning Pulley / AFe filter / 034 TBB / mod airbox / X-pipe
    - 09' E90 M3 7-DCT Interlagos Blue / Novillo Silver - gone Click here to enlarge
    [K&N filter|MS pullies|test pipes|Evolve Stg II tune/Servotronic/GTS-DCT Tune|Euro MDM]


  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spool twice Click here to enlarge
    how many extra degrees of advance did you use?
    I added 2 degrees from 3500-6500 for load targets above 120. I'm also running a small blend of E85, absolutely no timing corrections. I'll probably try adding another degree tomorrow and relog. I also fattened up the AFR's a bit, just to be on the safe side. I really like the Timing correction factor tables for IAT/OIL temps as well.

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    Reading from the Cobb documentation, I found an interesting piece of information. It appears that the N54 engine speed is regulated via the injectors and the ignition system. The throttle body is used predominantly for boost control. All this makes sense, but what I want to know if the following is true:

    Say you are cruising leisurely on 4th gear. The engine is operating in vacuum at this point. You then decide to speed up rapidly and you put your foot down. The ECU sees this as a request for more load, determines that it needs more boost to meet the new requested load target and then actuates the waste gates which up to this point were almost completely open because the engine was in vacuum.

    Your foot is still down on the pedal waiting for response. Wastegates shut, turbos spool, boost builds up before the throttle plate. The ECU sees the increase of the boost and then opens the throttle plate, releasing all the accumulated boost into the manifold and finally the engine delivers requested output.

    If all this is true, in order to fiddle with the throttle response (which is what I want to do at this point), I need to trace the maps in ATR in the following path:

    Accelerator Pedal Position -> Requested Load Target -> Waste Gate Duty % -> Throttle Plate Position

    Does this sound right?
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
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