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  1. #1
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    3 Series wagon is coming back to the USA - F31 3 Series touring to go on sale in 2013

    This car should never have been taken out of the US lineup. The 5 Series GT was simply not the answer for people who wanted a wagon, the sales figures supported that. Unfortunately, it will be a year long wait before we have this car as it will go on sale in Spring of 2013. Expect the wagon to mirror F30 drivetrain choices so expect 328i and 335i models. The chances for a deal do not look good. Check out the pictures below.

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    Source: BMW USA

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    Is it wrong to love wagons? If I made any real money, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat!

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    ^
    Absolutely not.

    The new 5-series wagon looks even better.


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    if only they would make an m3 wagon xD

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yukohama Click here to enlarge
    if only they would make an m3 wagon xD
    No reason for it.

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    they had no reason for the e60 m5 touring but they made it?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yukohama Click here to enlarge
    they had no reason for the e60 m5 touring but they made it?
    Only in Europe.

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    $#@!. yes. would prefer this over any x1 or x3 by a long shot.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No reason for it.
    More rigid chassis, more practical.

    The brilliance of the M3 is it combines sportiness and practicality. An M3 wagon would do that better. Minimal decrease in sport, huge increase in practical.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    More rigid chassis, more practical.

    The brilliance of the M3 is it combines sportiness and practicality. An M3 wagon would do that better. Minimal decrease in sport, huge increase in practical.
    The M3 is watered down as is with too many variants and this was one of the complaints by BMW with this generation. Many sedans sat on lots.

    A wagon is more practical but the M3 was never imagined as a wagon and has never been a wagon. Just get a 335i wagon and call it a day, no reason for the M3 wagon that I see and I wouldn't want to see it. The M5 makes more sense in this regard.

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M3 is watered down as is with too many variants and this was one of the complaints by BMW with this generation. Many sedans sat on lots.

    A wagon is more practical but the M3 was never imagined as a wagon and has never been a wagon. Just get a 335i wagon and call it a day, no reason for the M3 wagon that I see and I wouldn't want to see it. The M5 makes more sense in this regard.
    The wagon isn't a watering down. Automated gearboxes, turbos, isolation from the road, SUV awd M cars, electronics that drive the car for you, and excess weight is what's dumbing them down modern BMWs.

    The only car configuration I'd consider a watering down is the vert... and they've made that in every generation.

    The M3 is the sports car you can drive every day. The wagon would be better at that mission. Makes sense to me.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The wagon isn't a watering down. Automated gearboxes, turbos, isolation from the road, SUV awd M cars, electronics that drive the car for you, and excess weight is what's dumbing them down modern BMWs.

    The only car configuration I'd consider a watering down is the vert... and they've made that in every generation.

    The M3 is the sports car you can drive every day. The wagon would be better at that mission. Makes sense to me.
    I think a dual clutch transmission to improve performance makes more sense than adding a needless variant.

    The M3 was a coupe designed to race. First it was DTM, now ALMS. It is was never intended to be a grocery getter or a vehicle for soccer moms. At least BMW seems to agree. If you want more practicality, as I said, the M5 exists.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I think a dual clutch transmission to improve performance makes more sense than adding a needless variant.

    The M3 was a coupe designed to race. First it was DTM, now ALMS. It is was never intended to be a grocery getter or a vehicle for soccer moms. At least BMW seems to agree. If you want more practicality, as I said, the M5 exists.
    The M5 is not nearly as rewarding to drive on a back road, has higher running costs, uses significantly more gas, and in the F10/F30 generation, I find has a less useable back seat (at 6'4, I can sit comfortably behind myself in the F30... but not the F10). Not to mention the M5 is a $100,000 car vs the M3's $60,000.

    Current M3 race cars have barely any relation to the street car (they share what, headlights?), so WGAF.

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    The current M3 sedan already uses coupe headlights, so it's pretty safe to say the wagon would have as well. So there you go-- similar levels of parts sharing with the race program Click here to enlarge

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    Gie it to me on "D" variant and people will buy it , trust me on this cause I would been of those to buy that way and I am a single man with kids every 6 months. Love the BMW wagons, lowered down and pumped up aka Wolf in Sheep's clothing style aka "SLEEPER"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The M5 is not nearly as rewarding to drive on a back road, has higher running costs, uses significantly more gas, and in the F10/F30 generation, I find has a less useable back seat (at 6'4, I can sit comfortably behind myself in the F30... but not the F10). Not to mention the M5 is a $100,000 car vs the M3's $60,000.

    Current M3 race cars have barely any relation to the street car (they share what, headlights?), so WGAF.
    The M5 has a twin turbo V8 now I really don't think the gas argument makes sense versus the current M3.

    The argument you are making is daily usability and in that case the M5 wins which is probably why BMW made an M5 touring and not an M3 touring.

    Current M3 race cars run a 4.0 liter naturally aspirated high revving V8. What does the street M3 run?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Puerto Rican 335d Click here to enlarge
    Gie it to me on "D" variant and people will buy it , trust me on this cause I would been of those to buy that way and I am a single man with kids every 6 months. Love the BMW wagons, lowered down and pumped up aka Wolf in Sheep's clothing style aka "SLEEPER"
    Diesel wagon in the US makes more sense than an M3 wagon ever would.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M5 has a twin turbo V8 now I really don't think the gas argument makes sense versus the current M3.

    The argument you are making is daily usability and in that case the M5 wins which is probably why BMW made an M5 touring and not an M3 touring.

    Current M3 race cars run a 4.0 liter naturally aspirated high revving V8. What does the street M3 run?
    A different 4.0 liter naturally aspirated high revving V8. Click here to enlarge

    The M3 is still less than 2/3 the price, more fuel efficient when comparing cars of the same generation, and has more useable space despite being a smaller car.

    Mostly, though... I don't want to drive a 5 series on a daily basis. The M5 drives BIG. Hell, even the M3 feels annoyingly large these days. But the M5 feels like a (fast) 7 series.

  19. #19
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    A different 4.0 liter naturally aspirated high revving V8.
    Which it only is able to use because the M3 has a 4.0 liter naturally aspirated V8. Did you forget what happened back with the E46 M3 in ALMS?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The M3 is still less than 2/3 the price, more fuel efficient when comparing cars of the same generation, and has more useable space despite being a smaller car.
    Do you have an E92 M3? I can tell you it is not fuel efficient and how it is more fuel efficient than cars of the same generation? What cars? People want a wagon that gets 14 MPG when they instead could get better daily usability from a 335d or one with an N55? That is what it is coming with anyway.

    The M3 is basically a sports car which is why the V8 makes sense.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Mostly, though... I don't want to drive a 5 series on a daily basis. The M5 drives BIG. Hell, even the M3 feels annoyingly large these days. But the M5 feels like a (fast) 7 series.
    You have driven the F10 M5? Nope, don't think so. If your argument is about daily usability then the 5 makes all the more sense in the world. Regardless, BMW can't make a business case for an M3 wagon and neither can I.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Which it only is able to use because the M3 has a 4.0 liter naturally aspirated V8. Did you forget what happened back with the E46 M3 in ALMS?



    Do you have an E92 M3? I can tell you it is not fuel efficient and how it is more fuel efficient than cars of the same generation? What cars? People want a wagon that gets 14 MPG when they instead could get better daily usability from a 335d or one with an N55? That is what it is coming with anyway.

    The M3 is basically a sports car which is why the V8 makes sense.



    You have driven the F10 M5? Nope, don't think so. If your argument is about daily usability then the 5 makes all the more sense in the world. Regardless, BMW can't make a business case for an M3 wagon and neither can I.
    I'm not really sure why you're hung up on the race car. A wagon existing would not make the race car not exist or take away the engine. Who cares which shape of car they base the race car on, anyway? The race car has little to nothing in common with the street car.

    The M3 is a sport sedan, not a sports car. Sport sedan combines practicality with sportiness. It's true, the fuel economy (especially in the e9X generation) is garbage, but wouldn't be more of a detractor in the wagon than, say, the sedan... which exists and people love. And, if you think the M5 wagon makes sense... the e60 M5 gets 12 miles per gallon. If the M3 is a sports car, it's not a particularly good one. 3650 lbs? Better be getting something for all that weight.

    I have not driven an F10 M5 yet. I have driven the non M F10, e60 M5, e60 non M, e39 non M, and own an e39 M5. I feel 100% confident in saying that the F10 M5 will not be particularly rewarding on a back road. The F10 non M feels MUCH bigger than the 60, which feels bigger than the 39... and i don't find the e39 M5 to be particularly rewarding on a back road either. The 5 has grown to the point that I can't imagine buying one anymore. The 1 is the old 3, the 3 is the old 5.

    Anyways, I'm not sure you're capable of understanding this. The wagon does take away from the M3 "image", which I think is where you're hung up. And it would appear you're not alone, at least in the USA-- since we don't get the hatchbacks or M5 wagon.

  21. #21
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    I'm not really sure why you're hung up on the race car.
    Um, because BMW moved to a V8 due to it? The M3's origins are from being a race car? DTM? Hello?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    A wagon existing would not make the race car not exist or take away the engine. Who cares which shape of car they base the race car on, anyway? The race car has little to nothing in common with the street car.
    This is absolutely true but how has a wagon ever fit the character of the M3?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The M3 is a sport sedan, not a sports car.
    It is a sports sedan that does the best sports car impression of any sport sedan in the world. Also two time defending ALMS GT Class winner where the sport sedan shows it can be a hell of a sports car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    And, if you think the M5 wagon makes sense... the e60 M5 gets 12 miles per gallon.
    It's 2012, the M5 no longer has an S85. Fact is the M5 makes more sense as a wagon, BMW agrees.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    I feel 100% confident in saying that the F10 M5 will not be particularly rewarding on a back road.
    Based on not driving it? How heavy is the GTR? How does it handle on a back road?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Anyways, I'm not sure you're capable of understanding this. The wagon does take away from the M3 "image", which I think is where you're hung up. And it would appear you're not alone, at least in the USA
    Ding, ding, ding. And if someone is going to buy a wagon, are they going to be looking more for a 335/238 or diesel or a high revving 4.0 liter V8 with poor gas mileage? Especially since you get a wagon for its usability and not sportiness?

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    BMW went to a V8 because there was nothing to be had from the I6 and they needed to stay competitive with Audi and MB. Their racing program may have benefited from that move, but that's not why they did it. Again, it doesn't matter anyway-- if they had offered an e91 M3, they could have still had the exact same vaguely coupe shaped racing car.

    Here's the crux of the issue: people buy a sport wagon because they want usability and sportiness. If you just want a utility vehicle, you buy an SUV. THE reason to buy a BMW sport wagon is sportiness and practicality in one car. The fuel economy affects the sedan and coupe every bit as much it does the wagon. So if the wagon doesn't make sense because of fuel economy, then neither do the others.

    The F10 M5 will be wider, longer, taller, and heavier than an e38 7 series. It's effectively an M7 in old BMW terminology. The F30 is an e39 dimensioned car. The new M3 will, effectively, be what the M5 used to be. And you know what? BMW offered an e34 M5 wagon-- similar in all dimensions to what an F30 M3 wagon would be. Again, yes, I haven't driven an F10 M5 yet. But every generation of M5 is kind of frustrating on a back road, and by all accounts that I've read, this one feels the biggest. So, consider my expectations low. I'd be happy to be proven wrong when they're out for test drives.

    The e60 and e9X are cars of the same generation. When discussing this topic, it makes sense to group them together as well as the F10/F30. There may be a brief period where the F10 M5 and e9X M3 are on sale at the same time, but for the majority of each cars life they will compare to cars of their own generation. Within the same generation, the M3 is clearly the more fuel efficient and rewarding to drive car.

    The M3's origins are from DTM, yes. That slightly held up in the e36 era. In the 46 era they had an e46 chassis with a non e46 engine. Now the M3 race car has nothing in common with the street car other than the headlights.

    Just because there's no business case for it doesn't mean M doesn't see it as something desirable, nor that they haven't in the past: google image search "e46 M3 touring". I'd post pic, but, you know-- you have it set up so I can't post pics or links, as you don't like a fair fight.

    I kind of suspect, from how thoroughly you've ruined your own e92 M3, that you don't actually understand the joy of driving a well balanced, sporty car on a daily basis. Maybe that's why you don'y understand why you'd want one that was also practical.

    Anyway, I'm out. As always, debating with you is like debating with a wall. A wall that likes to multi quote to fight the minutia, rather than the actually having a discussion.

  23. #23
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    I can see where the generations of cars keep getting plumped up. I always wanted an E60 M5 but I find it much like my girls Maxima...large overhangs and I cant judge corners without really leaning over the steering wheel (and I drive upright in a proper seating position, not gangster lean).

    My E90 335 had great back room, I found it a bit cramped leg-wise in the E60, and the F10 as well (worked on many, had the opportunity to drive many).

    My E38 535 fit 4 people very comfortably, and sitting next to a 1M, the 1M appears larger than it....hard to believe, but 27 years of difference of technology will do that.

    And oddly enough, if I could, I would drive my E28 every day Click here to enlarge I would buy an M3 wagon if they made it..I have always had a thing for wagons.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    BMW went to a V8 because there was nothing to be had from the I6 and they needed to stay competitive with Audi and MB. Their racing program may have benefited from that move, but that's not why they did it.
    You just said they could not gain more from the I6 and the racing program benefited. So that isn't why they did it? Please, tell us all why they did it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Here's the crux of the issue: people buy a sport wagon because they want usability and sportiness.
    Tell me why the N55 does not satisfy this while offering an engine character more suited to a heavier wagon?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The F10 M5 will be wider, longer, taller, and heavier than an e38 7 series. It's effectively an M7 in old BMW terminology. The F30 is an e39 dimensioned car. The new M3 will, effectively, be what the M5 used to be. And you know what? BMW offered an e34 M5 wagon-- similar in all dimensions to what an F30 M3 wagon would be. Again, yes, I haven't driven an F10 M5 yet. But every generation of M5 is kind of frustrating on a back road, and by all accounts that I've read, this one feels the biggest. So, consider my expectations low. I'd be happy to be proven wrong when they're out for test drives.
    Cars are getting heavier, can't help it, but it doesn't change the fact technology has improved as well. My answer to all of this is the GT-R. Heavy does not mean you can't perform.

    By all accounts I have read they are saying the new F10 M5 handles pretty darn well. It is hefty, don't get me wrong, but the M5 character being heavy to begin with suits a wagon more. Once again, BMW themselves agrees with this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The e60 and e9X are cars of the same generation. When discussing this topic, it makes sense to group them together as well as the F10/F30.
    Not really because the current M3 is the E9X and current M5 is the F10. We have already gone from the high revving motors. You are living in the past.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    The M3's origins are from DTM, yes. That slightly held up in the e36 era. In the 46 era they had an e46 chassis with a non e46 engine. Now the M3 race car has nothing in common with the street car other than the headlights.
    I think you need to differentiate between ALMS and DTM more. DTM sort of being a European Nascar.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Just because there's no business case for it doesn't mean M doesn't see it as something desirable, nor that they haven't in the past: google image search "e46 M3 touring". I'd post pic, but, you know-- you have it set up so I can't post pics or links, as you don't like a fair fight.
    If may be be desirable like a M1 but they haven't produced either.

    I have it set up with you a guest vendor because you sell products and act like a $#@!. Don't whine about asking for a fair fight when you went out of your way to get me banned and post libel on forums I could not respond to. You are a hypocrite and a shameless one at that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    I kind of suspect, from how thoroughly you've ruined your own e92 M3, that you don't actually understand the joy of driving a well balanced, sporty car on a daily basis. Maybe that's why you don'y understand why you'd want one that was also practical.
    No offense, but I'm building a car for a specific purpose you can't grasp. If I wanted the nice stock driving experience I would have left it stock. Don't get mad because I can do things you can't. This is a site about performance and I'm taking my car to the extreme. The only thing destroyed will be any car you own.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Anyway, I'm out. As always, debating with you is like debating with a wall.
    Good idea, run away and hide where I can't have a fair fight. Heh, later hypocrite, come back when you get better at this. That likely means never.

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    0 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    performance /= handling
    track times /= handling
    lateral grip /= handing

    Which... is something that may be out of your grasp if you've been happy with driving your mom's SUV for the last two years, so you could build an M3 that can accelerate quickly. Theoretically... currently M3s don't get much slower than yours (other than when they're backing up).

    I didn't get you banned on every BMW forum other than the one your parents bought for you. Your personality did.

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