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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Its just engine speed. Any turbo car is going to have a humpish torque curve… it’s just where does this fall in the rpm range, and all depends on the turbo. Any head/plumbing work will result in a similar looking curve… just more area under it. VANOS would have an effect.
    We dyno'd a S2000 with headgasket, turbo/manifold (forgot which), and full catless turbo-back. It was full spool at about 5,000RPM and revved out to about 8,700RPM. 93 octane only, and it still had revs left with good torque. Stock head. 15psi flat across. No torque drop.

    I'll post the chart. The F20C has one of the best heads stock. There are tons of variables, but I bet the N54 head is the main thing causing the drop in volumetric efficiency now.

  2. #52
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    Here are some charts: (I had to use print screen because there was a bug with PowerDyne)

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  3. #53
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    You can see they gained about 22whp by leaning it out.

  4. #54
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    There is NO reason we shouldn't be able to get the N54 to hold torque like that. I believe the head should get work first. Then maybe the throttle body and intake manifold.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    And as Josh said, any engine is going to see a natural VE curve (with torque falling off up top). No pump is perfect at all rotational speeds. Especially one that was designed to provide full torque at ~2000rpm. Despite this, it's pretty amazing that this engine, with a suitable turbo, is capable of still making peak power at max revs. I suspect the same will hold true when we rev it out to 8k. Pretty cool.
    Trust me, I understand that. And I have proof and disagree that torque will always drop off at top. Some motors have such good VE near top RPM that they keep making good torque up until the hardware rotational/stress limits. I've been saying that the whole time if you really read what I'm saying. I'm saying we should improve VE up top where it sucks on the N54, especially with a higher flow-rate turbo like the one you are running....

    And yes, the curve will change. It will not always look the same but with more area. You can build for just top-end, and it will look drastically different.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robert Click here to enlarge
    If you look at the dyno graphs you posted, you will see that torque is falling off up top. Typical with a dual came motor is that you see two VE curves linked together (double-hump). The second hump (aggressive cam), like the first, will still look like a curve and have top end roll off. You just need to rev it out enough to see it. In the example you posted, you can see it quite clearly
    Yes, it lost maybe 10ft-lbs by the last 200RPM of the safe hardware speed. You can see the cam-profile change from VTEC. My point is we should design the N54 with good VE up top. It FEELS good, it allows maximum use of gearing, it makes the most power, it sounds better, etc.

    I'm not saying that mid and low range VE is useless. I'm saying the N54 head and valve-train aren't currently flowing as well as I would like for a big airflow turbo(s). You know this because you had to ramp from 16.5psi to 22.5psi just to keep torque even.

    As far as money, I'm not talking cost effective. Really, the bottom line is, the N54 is NOT the best flowing head (there are published numbers), and regardless of whether it happens now or later, there WILL be gains made by improving the head.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robert Click here to enlarge
    Just saying that a torque roll-off is not indicative of cylinder head limitations. Especially when it's relatively minor as in the case of the single turbo n54.
    Shiv
    But it is, when the airflow is there from a turbo barely trying (it's in the inner efficiency islands), and the plumbing is sufficient (which I haven't gotten into yet).

    I'm not even saying this is concrete and I'm right. I'm basically taking a guess based on what I've seen and dyno'd, saying that I think the loss of VE is coming from the head/valve-train and possibly the throttle-body/intake manifold at your current horsepower level.

  8. #58
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    Shiv, would it be possible for you to post up a chart with a flat 20psi across? Or 22psi? Whatever you want. I really am just curious.

    BTW, I'm extremely excited that you have taken the N54 to this level. Love seeing those launches with a well-working two-step and no-lift shift. I'm not in any way saying anything negative about your kit.

    It's BMW's fault. Click here to enlarge

  9. #59
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    I think with Honda VVT you have 2 completely different lobes in both duration and lift… I suspect this is what gives the flatter curve, as mentioned. I do think our curve profile will remain somewhat constant… it’s just where it falls on the graph. There’s both adv/dis to where you place it. One of the disadvantages to moving more VE to the top is you have to build for higher rpm… not in my budget.

  10. #60
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    Cool, more pics when you have a chance.

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Thanks for the info and hard work Dz.



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by robert Click here to enlarge
    Just saying that a torque roll-off is not indicative of cylinder head limitations. Especially when it's relatively minor as in the case of the single turbo n54.
    Torque roll off is the main result of cylinder head limitations, the engine cant breathe. You are approaching the sonic velocity at the port and it does not want to flow any more. Fixing that will open up tons of power, even for a single turbo, the ports can only do so much.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    Click here to enlarge

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    We dyno'd a S2000 with headgasket, turbo/manifold (forgot which), and full catless turbo-back. It was full spool at about 5,000RPM and revved out to about 8,700RPM. 93 octane only, and it still had revs left with good torque. Stock head. 15psi flat across. No torque drop.

    I'll post the chart. The F20C has one of the best heads stock. There are tons of variables, but I bet the N54 head is the main thing causing the drop in volumetric efficiency now.
    Yes but it's hard to isolate one aspect of a head like raw airflow from large ports and lots of valve area on a port injected engine and translate that into a direct injected engine with tighter emissions that bmw arguely was aiming for v8-like torque from literally almost off-idle, not high rpm hp. In other words, you have to give up something in head design usually and it's clear what path bmw was aiming for.

    That one could improve airflow on the n54 head is certain but what's not clear is how far you can go and what ill effects you'd run into as you changed it. The head may have 30% or more airflow increases in it and it might do so with little negatives to idle quality, plug fouling, etc. There's only one way to find out though.

    As always, look to compare other similar heads, starting with maybe just DI, like the mazdaspeed 3 etc.

    Also, spraying anything from N2O to meth will significantly drop VE, esp in an engine that's DI (dry ports) I'd guess. Spray clouds of water/meth and undoubtedly your VE will drop as can even be seen on something the recent bms n55 intake test. (my guess, but the car showed little gain on meth vs off as the meth likely dropped ve and air demand enough to negate the need for the intake. Again, just my educated guess. YMMV)

  13. #63
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    As mentioned by others, I would open the ports slightly. Open the exhaust side a bit and polish it up, the intake open it a little and rough it up to keep the turbulence going. I wouldn't say hog it out but DBFIU is correct. If small changes show gains, my decision would be to acquire a spare head and have it worked. We know that these turbos choke up, but I would say head work is only necessary with RBs or even a single. Stock turbos it's pointless, as they run into their limit before the head does.

    Rob Beck said the stock exhaust manifold has some decent flow to it, to design a tubular setup that would flow into that tiny exhaust housing would also not be worth the time.

    Its like trying to make a KA24DE breathe like an SR20DET motor when you strap a turbo to it. The KA is a truck motor, the head and cams are optimized for low end. Even with a turbo on it redline remains the same (about 7k), but it makes A $#@!load more torque than An SR ever would. Most guys don't try to build a crazy head for that motor because it's just not designed to spin over 7k. So we do a slight port job at best. Redline remains stock, and we just live with the low end grunt Click here to enlarge

  14. #64
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    Let's just hire a guy from the N54 engineering team and ask him to design a head in CAD software that mixes properly for higher flow rates and RPM. Click here to enlarge

    Who wants to take care of the intake manifold/throttle body? (Guess ER's solution didn't work out so well)

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    I'm also not rushing into it and want to gather info/data and good reasons for changing an OEM part for an aftermarket one while having a decent understanding of the OEM pitfalls/benefits and possibly outcomes. I'm definitely not looking to just go in there and start to randomly replace parts for no good reason.
    What is your schedule for the rebuild? Getting all the parts may take some time, after you've decided what you'll upgrade exactly.

    Damn, I couldn't be without my car for such a long time. Especially as summer approaches Click here to enlarge

  16. #66
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    No schedule and definitely not rushing any of it. I'll rather put it back the way it was then just start "upgrading" without having a slightest clue about what it is exactly that's being "upgraded", especially when nothing is broken yet. I have another car and ride a train to work anyways so no biggie
    Click here to enlarge

  17. #67
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    So I take it your review on the HFS-4 has been put on the back burner until your car is back together?

    Can you post some more pics of the intake valves, and tops of the pistons.

  18. #68
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    Ya that review will come soon..overall much better kit quality wise than what i had before but as with anything it needs to see some mileage

    I have no other pics at the moment as i havent been back to the shop since but maybe this weekend
    Click here to enlarge

  19. #69
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    Were you also looking adding a wide range of sensors to your engine? If so, what data logger have you been looking at?
    Rep Points > Posts since 2010

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Were you also looking adding a wide range of sensors to your engine? If so, what data logger have you been looking at?
    I wasn't planning on it but now that you mention it what would you recommend and how might those sensors differ given DI?
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #71
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Some more pics (intake valves were cleaned about 25,000km ago, last 10,000km with OCC...carbon builds up so fast)...not so CLEAN on the inside as I thought Click here to enlarge flash really brings out the details

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    Intake valve (cylinder 6, pulled it out for pics and inspection of valve stem seal)

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    Exhaust Valves:
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    Intake Valves:
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  22. #72
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    OH MY GOD!! Click here to enlargeWhat did you do, to that beautiful engine; I can't believe you did that!
    I mean, I know you where thinking it but to do that, I am shocked, how could you?
    It didn’t ask you to do that, but you did it anyways. Shame on you, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    I just can't believe it. WOW!

    JK

    So what is next?
    Click here to enlarge

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Some more pics (intake valves were cleaned about 25,000km ago, last 10,000km with OCC...carbon builds up so fast)...not so CLEAN on the inside as I thought Click here to enlarge flash really brings out the details

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_195130-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_195156-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_195147-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201251-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201951-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201326-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201303-1.jpg


    Intake valve (cylinder 6, pulled it out for pics and inspection of valve stem seal)

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202536-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_200217-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_200505-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_200327-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_195601-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_200022-1.jpg


    Exhaust Valves:
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201544-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201602-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201608-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201617-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201646-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_201700-1.jpg

    Intake Valves:
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202000-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202006-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202014-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202022-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202030-1.jpg
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...0_202048-1.jpg
    That's a great set of pics.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by farbmw Click here to enlarge
    OH MY GOD!! Click here to enlargeWhat did you do, to that beautiful engine; I can't believe you did that!
    I mean, I know you where thinking it but to do that, I am shocked, how could you?
    It didn’t ask you to do that, but you did it anyways. Shame on you, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    I just can't believe it. WOW!

    JK

    So what is next?
    Click here to enlarge
    hehe Click here to enlarge what you mean the cylinder head? meh, just a piece of finely machined precision cut aluminum that i'm throwing around my garage...nothing special really

    plans are many, we'll see what happens in the next few days...this week should see some pretty exciting stuff happening
    Click here to enlarge

  25. #75
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    hmmmm Click here to enlarge stock valve, cleaned at a shop, on the right...Ferrea valve on the left

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