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  1. #451
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    What do you guys think about the VANOS changes when it comes to this head? Any suggestions what direction you'd go there? I'm leaving tinkering with it for the dyno. On the stock head, changing the VANOS with stock and RB turbos provides very minimal top end gains if any over what the COBB OTS map already provides. There is a bit to be gained depending on boost levels but not much. It'll be interesting if those same changes help with this head in place.
    In theory, since intake runner volume has changed, you should see larger gains from adjusting VANOS, versus a stock head, as any changes to runner volume should change the ideal timing of the valve opening event. Unfortunately I don't have enough practical knowledge to help you any further.

  2. #452
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    It is interesting to see how much the gains could be in total. I'd think they are quite small and can be attributed partially to the lower CR and partially to the enhanced flow.

  3. #453
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    In theory, since intake runner volume has changed, you should see larger gains from adjusting VANOS, versus a stock head, as any changes to runner volume should change the ideal timing of the valve opening event. Unfortunately I don't have enough practical knowledge to help you any further.
    I don't expect much from the VANOS over what the OTS provides due to the same backpressure still being there/imposed by the stock exhaust housings, but we'll see.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    It is interesting to see how much the gains could be in total. I'd think they are quite small and can be attributed partially to the lower CR and partially to the enhanced flow.
    I partially agree. The reason I don't fully agree with this statement is that the lower CR is actually causing a power loss which first has to be compensated for with additional timing/boost. Once you're past that you get to push on further and see what on top you'd get.

    I think that to truly see the "exact" gains from the head work (or lack thereof) you'd have to preserve the original head gasket and incur a minimal to no compression drop that way. In other words, cylinder head is the only change, not in combination with a CR drop.

    It is what it is. Its not cheap or quick to change head gaskets on this car given the turbos are also on it so maybe if anyone else is down this road again they can attest to this better. I personally wanted a slight compression drop regardless and saw the thicker gasket as an easy ticket to getting that at this time as the plan is to possibly go with something larger in the coming year.

    As far as I'm personally concerned I enjoyed participating in the work done and learned quite a bit on what's involved in the process. Will the gains justify the $$ and time spent, that depends on the point of view and your expectations given what we can push boost wise from 6-7k rpm with RB turbos today. To me personally it was worth it already. I paid to participate in this process, to be part of it, see what's done first hand and learn from the experts in the field with years of experience.

    One thing I'm thinking of doing, other than an all out run on the dyno, is to set up a tune that runs a level of boost that can be kept flat to redline, say 18psi, instead of heaving the typical low RPM high boost, high rpm boost taper setup. This may provide a better picture of what the head is doing with airflow throughout the RPM range. Just a random quick thought...what do you guys think? Or maybe even lower, 15psi to redline, basically something that should allow us to get away with the level of boost to redline given tiny exhaust housings and have that to compare against another car running the same flat boost curve, or in other words, lack of a boost "curve", and see what it does to power through various RPMs. This will probably not make sense as in my case I'm adding more timing to compensate for the CR drop but could also result in more power and an unfair comparison, thoughts?
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-08-2012 at 03:11 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  4. #454
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Enough theory, show us the dyno! Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #455
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Enough theory, show us the dyno! Click here to enlarge
    LOL how long did you have RBs before you dynoed again? Click here to enlarge Patience, still need to rewire my meth kit
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #456
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    Concur with flat boost theory. Eliminet variables and make them constant, that will show you the dependant outcomes. I'm really excited for you dude.

  7. #457
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    Concur with flat boost theory. Eliminet variables and make them constant, that will show you the dependant outcomes. I'm really excited for you dude.
    Ya makes sense to me as well. Not sure how timing would affect it but if timing is also kept flat at least 5k rpm up it should probably be interesting to see. I guess more data never hurts so we'll see.

    I'll try to make it to the dyno tomorrow after work. If not, I won't be able to do it this weekend as I'm going to a wedding in the US and it'll have to happen the week/weekend after. I'm definitely not trying to drag this out at all as I'm highly anxious to see the numbers as well whatever they may be Click here to enlarge

    There's also only 2 more weekends available for the drag strip and I'd like to make it out there at least once this year before they shut down.
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #458
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    I don't expect much from the VANOS over what the OTS provides due to the same backpressure still being there/imposed by the stock exhaust housings, but we'll see.
    Forgive me if I'm telling you stuff you already know, but regardless of backpressure, changing VANOS should still have a greater effect than on a stock head. When valves open, air flows in, creating a low pressure wave throughout the manifold. After the low pressure wave passes through the intake manifold, a higher pressure wave follows (due to inertia, it will be even higher than average boost pressure). If you open the intake valve at the same time as the high pressure wave is in the intake port, you end up with better cylinder filling (very important for NA engines, less so for FI). Assuming the factory VANOS is tuned to take advantage of this, you will lose some of that advantage due to changes in intake port volume, which change the timing of that high pressure wave.

    This pressure wave tuning is very RPM dependent. VANOS is quite helpful here, as you can modify valve timing to be close to ideal across the RPM range. I can't say how much more beneficial modifying the VANOS on the intake cam will be, I can only say it will be more beneficial than it would be on a stock cylinder head. Click here to enlarge

    I think you should try to run flat boost to redline, but keep in mind that with a more efficient head, it may push your turbos further out of their efficiency range.

  9. #459
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    Had another thought, but was too late to edit my post.

    Talking about keeping the same tuning variables when trying out different setups on engines seems problematic to me. Back on the Evo forums, people would always want to compare different parts with the "same tune" to see which part is better. But the thing is, different parts require different tunes to take full advantage of the potential power increase. An engine isn't a discrete device where you can plug in different parts from the outside with the same variables and expect to find the "best" part. It's a system. Everything affects everything else in the system.

    The sad reality is a single enthusiast or tuner (short of owning a serious race team, and why would you give away your secrets in that situation?) cannot afford to find the "best" setup, as that takes a whole lot of time and money (competitive Pro Stock, NASCAR, and Formula 1 engines all cost about a quarter million for a reason). Whenever an advertiser makes certain claims about the benefits of their parts, one should always be skeptical, as there are so many variables that they can influence when testing their claims. But if I were tuning for myself (and I belive dzenno is, even though he's started a business around it), I'd want to know the difference between one setup with the ideal tune for the first setup, vs. the second setup with the ideal tune for the second setup, in weather conditions as close as possible, on the dyno. That is the only way to find the true benefit of any given modification.

  10. #460
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    Had another thought, but was too late to edit my post.

    Talking about keeping the same tuning variables when trying out different setups on engines seems problematic to me. Back on the Evo forums, people would always want to compare different parts with the "same tune" to see which part is better. But the thing is, different parts require different tunes to take full advantage of the potential power increase. An engine isn't a discrete device where you can plug in different parts from the outside with the same variables and expect to find the "best" part. It's a system. Everything affects everything else in the system.

    The sad reality is a single enthusiast or tuner (short of owning a serious race team, and why would you give away your secrets in that situation?) cannot afford to find the "best" setup, as that takes a whole lot of time and money (competitive Pro Stock, NASCAR, and Formula 1 engines all cost about a quarter million for a reason). Whenever an advertiser makes certain claims about the benefits of their parts, one should always be skeptical, as there are so many variables that they can influence when testing their claims. But if I were tuning for myself (and I belive dzenno is, even though he's started a business around it), I'd want to know the difference between one setup with the ideal tune for the first setup, vs. the second setup with the ideal tune for the second setup, in weather conditions as close as possible, on the dyno. That is the only way to find the true benefit of any given modification.
    Those are great points and I also had the same thoughts about the whole thing last night. The setup is just changed from what it used to be and there is no way to have apples vs apples comparison when it comes to the tune. The tune should be different to take advantage of the modification and not kept the same. IF I keep the tune the "same" I end up losing power which makes no sense given the changes involved.

    I have numbers from all out pump gas maps I've personally done with my car back with the stock head and I'll have them now with the new setup. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I know my data will be full disclosure as its always been. If there's no power gained everyone will know, same for power gained. Logs will be shown, discussion can take any direction those involved are wanting to take it, period.

    It'd be nice to see some other people do some valid RB pump gas tunes and present dynos and be fair to be done truly without meth, no octane boosters and crap so we could possibly visualize.
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #461
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    +1 guys. Not the same tune but ideal tune for each setup.

  12. #462
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    maybe i missed it but have you driven the car? if so how does it feel
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

  13. #463
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Quick update: The car is running stronger than ever Click here to enlarge Top end power, as in 6-7k rpm, doesn't look like its improved though and this is quite possibly due to partially boost taper to redline (even with 80% wgdc which is all out and I've actually now capped it to 75% max wgdc, don't want my RBs to go) as well as the stock frame turbo exhaust housing.

    With the OEM 2.5bar TMAP sensor maxed out last Friday the car put put down 445whp/470-ish wtq on just pump gas and IATs hitting 150-160F on the dyno. This is right within expectations I had for just pump on a tune that has NO corrections, timing at around 11.5deg, 12AFR. The head and the compression drop combo seem to be doing well.

    Due to high IATs I decided to pour in 5 gals of MS109 on an almost empty tank so pretty much 100% race gas. She put down 516whp/528wtq STD at about 20psi, 19.5* of timing, zero occurrence of knock/timing corrections but IATs were again at it hitting 150-160F Click here to enlarge Still, some sort of record for no meth and highest timing on an N54 ever? LOL I've actually taken timing to 21.5* but it was already past MBT for this octane so backed it down

    As of last night, meth is now wired back up, trunk mounted Howerton 2.2gal tank, OEM 3.5bar TMAP sensor is IN and functional. At the moment she's boosting 22.5psi to 5.5k rpm, 19.5-20psi 6k, 17.5-18 at redline. Car is able to run 19.5* of timing (same as on MS109) with just pump + meth. Hitting the dyno again tonight.

    I was really going to keep these results for myself until everything was tested as to minimize discussion on preliminary results but it is what it is for a start and I'm really happy given the best numbers which Shiv got with my car with the procede with BOTH race gas AND an M14 nozzle of meth were 490whp/480wtq STD when he was up here tuning it himself 2 years ago in colder weather. On an alpha race map from Cobb back in Feb/March the car did 471whp on pump+meth with the stock catback and stock head. This is just to put the numbers in perspective for my particular car/modifications/conditions and not compare to other cars out there. The alpha street map from Cobb (before i had atr/atp) on pump did 420-425whp running 18.5psi and timing appropriate for the stock head setup back then with no timing corrections.

    Car's a real a blast to drive. Took one of our forum members for a quick spin last night Click here to enlarge

    Once tonight's session is done I'll be swapping the intake pipes with something a bit less restrictive hopefully and try to get some E85 in there Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-12-2012 at 12:48 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  14. #464
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    And that member was not me! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by farbmw Click here to enlarge
    And that member was not me! Click here to enlarge
    It was someone that borrowed my vbox while my car was down Click here to enlarge had to pick it up
    Click here to enlarge

  16. #466
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    Alright, good work and I like the numbers. But still would have loved to see her Dyno'd

  17. #467
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by farbmw Click here to enlarge
    Alright, good work and I like the numbers. But still would have loved to see her Dyno'd
    Come by tonight if you like.
    Click here to enlarge

  18. #468
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    No problem what time and where?

  19. #469
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by farbmw Click here to enlarge
    No problem what time and where?
    TAG, probably around 6-6:30, long drive after work in rush hour traffic. I'll be there for a while
    Click here to enlarge

  20. #470
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    Very good numbers for no meth DZ! I can't speak for the pump numbers but it sounds like you're more IAT + octane limited with those turbos. Meth is going to be sweeeeet!

    Given the exhaust side hasn't changed because the same turbo is in place and the intake pipes are an unknown restriction, it will be interesting to see how much you can pick up for power above 5k as is. So far it looks pretty good! I wish you the best and think the intake pipes could be worth a bit (20-40whp, my WAG). Go get em man!Click here to enlarge

  21. #471
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BavarianBullet Click here to enlarge
    Very good numbers for no meth DZ! I can't speak for the pump numbers but it sounds like you're more IAT + octane limited with those turbos. Meth is going to be sweeeeet!

    Given the exhaust side hasn't changed because the same turbo is in place and the intake pipes are an unknown restriction, it will be interesting to see how much you can pick up for power above 5k as is. So far it looks pretty good! I wish you the best and think the intake pipes could be worth a bit (20-40whp, my WAG). Go get em man!Click here to enlarge
    Thanks man. In terms of intake pipes, how about no pipes? Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  22. #472
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    UHM.... Please elaborate. Mine goes under the knife on the 3rd of DEC and I would love to have this solved during that trip to the shop.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks Click here to enlarge
    Thanks man. In terms of intake pipes, how about no pipes? Click here to enlarge
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  23. #473
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    Yeah, but only if you can fit some decent filters...

    Neil

  24. #474
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    UHM.... Please elaborate. Mine goes under the knife on the 3rd of DEC and I would love to have this solved during that trip to the shop.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MDORPHN Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, but only if you can fit some decent filters...

    Neil
    Let you guys know. At this point take it with a grain of salt
    Click here to enlarge

  25. #475
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    Wow thats great pump numbers Dzenno! And great timing terriritories with such a small compression drop. I bet the responce feels great with 20 degrees. I'm going to need a ride in this beast, maybe it will finally push me over the RB edge and blind me to this M3 I was looking at...

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