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  1. #1
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    Question Overboosting on the track

    Ok folks,

    I went to a track day in Gingerman Raceway yesterday and I have something weird going on with the car:

    I am constantly getting 30FE (Overboost) code. It happens on all maps, Stage 0, 1, 2, 2+, so it seems like it is not software issue at all. I run Cobb BTW and this is the first time this has happened.

    I noticed that this occurs when exiting a long right turn followed by a long straight where I romp on the throttle as if I am escaping from the Mayan Apocalypse LOL. Click here to enlarge It does not happen on the highway where the car is running in a straight line.

    Vacuum lines look in great condition. The car has only 27K miles and it has always been garage kept. Digging through the forums I see that most of the these codes were prevailing during the earlier versions of the piggies and people with simple boost controllers.

    Everything points to a mechanical issue which from what I understand could be:

    * Bad boost solenoid
    * Sticking waste gates due to incorrect installation of v-band clamps
    * Sticking waste gate actuators.

    Any ideas?
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    i got the same code at exactly 210kmh when creeping to that speed in 5th gear with 50% throttle. WOT does not happened. I think is the boost control. Will see what Cobb says.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    You are hitting the function limit of DTC table declaration for ID_ERR_DTC_TCHA_PRS_HIGH_1. Pressure ratio limit...it's not related to boost solenoid rather than set values threshold.

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    Ok, why does it happen only on the track and nowhere else? Why does it happen on all maps including stock?

    Are my turbos spooling too much?
    From all the things I've lost,
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Ok, why does it happen only on the track and nowhere else? Why does it happen on all maps including stock?

    Are my turbos spooling too much?
    Boost PID at the track DME will compensate boost for raised IAT to target relative load/torque. You might want to check with your Tune supplied. Also, if you raised the Wastegate % duty kennfeld, it will definetly cause this as well.

    But, my own early personal tunes has suffered from this & other codes at the beginning but it was solved in the software with some kennfeld corrected values during some road course track events with brand new RB turbos.
    Last edited by LW@MTG; 04-15-2012 at 04:08 PM.

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    I am trying to post this here but the stinking software is constantly spilling its guts at me. Sticky, get it together man! This is ridiculous!

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    From all the things I've lost,
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  7. #7
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    @vasillalov , in terms of boost control, either DME or piggy, has a PID control setup that calibrates boost control...think of it like a control loop that self corrects and adjusts the boost curve

    Here's a bit from wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

    I just recently picked up on the details behind this as well...always knew about it, never bothered to learn what it is and/or how to go about adjusting my own P I and D values...it'll give you a bit of headache Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    In the image above, your incoming wgdc for example is there, which is passed through the P, I and D and you get a corrected wgdc after the PID...once its applied boost is measured and the controller sees if it went over or under target and the result is passed back to the input for further refinement using the PID...closed loop feedback

    PID controllers are very common out there, boost control is just one application where they're utilitized
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 04-15-2012 at 08:55 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

  8. #8
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    Key paragraph is this (how to manually adjust the PID, think about a boost curve, brand new turbo or turbos and you're trying to find a way to run the wastegate so it tracks your target boost curve). Basically, zero out I and D and start by dialing in P. D for example would provide for faster boost response (less lag) but too much would cause oscillations, so its a balance of the 3 that you end up with in the end:

    If the system must remain online, one tuning method is to first set Click here to enlarge and Click here to enlarge values to zero. Increase the Click here to enlarge until the output of the loop oscillates, then the Click here to enlarge should be set to approximately half of that value for a "quarter amplitude decay" type response. Then increase Click here to enlarge until any offset is corrected in sufficient time for the process. However, too much Click here to enlarge will cause instability. Finally, increase Click here to enlarge, if required, until the loop is acceptably quick to reach its reference after a load disturbance. However, too much Click here to enlarge will cause excessive response and overshoot. A fast PID loop tuning usually overshoots slightly to reach the setpoint more quickly; however, some systems cannot accept overshoot, in which case an over-damped closed-loop system is required, which will require a Click here to enlarge setting significantly less than half that of the Click here to enlarge setting causing oscillation.

    The above also explains why we see overshoot in boost on all n54 tunes today (flash/piggy). They try to reach target as quickly as possible and that's the D part of the PID. Reducing it will make boost response more laggy, increasing it will contribute to overshoot, so again, tradeoffs.
    Click here to enlarge

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    @dzenno,

    Thanks for the clarification. I was not sure what the PID abbreviation stood for. That makes perfect sense.

    I'll do some more reading about PID controllers.

    That being said: I still don't understand why this happened on the track and nowhere else. I highly doubt this is a tuning issue. I am leaning towards a mechanical issue with the boost solenoid.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

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    Well, this is the same thing that happens to some tuning piggyback (that many got tossed out of track N54 cars) & some early BMW software versions. If you get to do 2-3 laps on the road course w/ DTC fully disabled for 5-7min. in drive it like a M driver I.e.: Homestead, Sebring, etc. Just monitor the IAT, oiltemmp & coolant temp, you will see as the engine gets hotter, it will overshoot boost pressure ratios & limp. All, it took was datalog & revised tables or kennfelds for fix.

    When you drive it in the street you don't actually take corners & drive it hard for more than 5min WOT or even in the 1/4mile. I have friend with a 135i street car with 405rwhp driving Sebring/Homestead really hard for 30 min. sessions & keeping up with GT3 Cup cars (except cornering..since GT3 has brakes & weight less) that has been trouble free... those Porsche guys was really surprised

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno ,

    Thanks for the clarification. I was not sure what the PID abbreviation stood for. That makes perfect sense.

    I'll do some more reading about PID controllers.

    That being said: I still don't understand why this happened on the track and nowhere else. I highly doubt this is a tuning issue. I am leaning towards a mechanical issue with the boost solenoid.

  11. #11
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    Cobb has WGDC temp compensation tables built into their PID..i guess they haven't had datalogs captured from a road coarse...if you've captured some logs @vasillalov, I suggest sending them over to Rob to review
    Click here to enlarge

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    i sent them tons of autobahn logs :-)
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    Hmm, quite frustrating to see there are still issues with Cobb. I'm a bit fed up with the Procede and I just want a 100% reliable tune with support for RB Turbos (on my to-do list).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Hmm, quite frustrating to see there are still issues with Cobb. I'm a bit fed up with the Procede and I just want a 100% reliable tune with support for RB Turbos (on my to-do list).
    yes couple of things to fix but its way better than procede even now. I am working closely with them so hopefully soon all the small bugs are fixed.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    yes couple of things to fix but its way better than procede even now. I am working closely with them so hopefully soon all the small bugs are fixed.
    I think I'll give it a try next month. Will be the 4th tune on my car. Hopefully the last Click here to enlarge

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    Well, I was monitoring the temps like a hawk: Coolant temp never rose above 200F on my P3 gauge. Oil temps never rose above 255 and the intake temperatures were under 110 all the time. So I don't see how this could be an overheating issue.
    From all the things I've lost,
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    Also I forgot to add: We had total of 4 sessions. First 2 sessions = no problem at all. Third session, car limped on the second lap. 4th session the car limped on the very first lap. Its always on the same spot: long straight after a long right turn.

    We had 4 groups running 20 min sessions. This means I had 1 hour between sessions. Considering the amount of cooling time, the overall cooler ambient temps, the actual engine operating temps, I don't think it is a PID issue. I think it is something mechanical.

    Question: are the two boost solenoids the same? Meaning, can I swap them out and see if the code moves with the solenoid, or is that a bad idea?
    From all the things I've lost,
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by m54b25 Click here to enlarge
    When you drive it in the street you don't actually take corners & drive it hard for more than 5min WOT or even in the 1/4mile. I have friend with a 135i street car with 405rwhp driving Sebring/Homestead really hard for 30 min. sessions & keeping up with GT3 Cup cars (except cornering..since GT3 has brakes & weight less) that has been trouble free... those Porsche guys was really surprised
    Don't mean to threadjack, but what mods are in that 135i? AT or MT? I've faced power reduction due to high coolant temps last year on the racetrack. I now have the OEM aux radiator from the Performance Power Kit and hopefully it will be enough to solve this problem. But it would be interesting to get some info about a working setup on the track.

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    Manual transmission here. Max coolant temperatures that I saw during the track event were 203F which is nowhere near enough to trip this type of problem.
    From all the things I've lost,
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Manual transmission here. Max coolant temperatures that I saw during the track event were 203F which is nowhere near enough to trip this type of problem.
    Yes, I am AT and I see 210-220F in daily driving Click here to enlarge I'll still be on the limit on the racetrack although my car has pretty much every cooling mod there is available.

    In your case, operating temps won't cause the DME to act (cut power first, then limp mode) but temps could still trigger something "in the tune" if a certain treshold is hit?

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    If your coolant is going past 220F timing will start to get pulled in accordance to engine coolant temp compensation tables
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    If your coolant is going past 220F timing will start to get pulled in accordance to engine coolant temp compensation tables
    Stock DME tables? I thought the treshold was @ 242F where power starts to be reduced? According to the "limp mode party" thread on another forum.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Don't mean to threadjack, but what mods are in that 135i? AT or MT? I've faced power reduction due to high coolant temps last year on the racetrack. I now have the OEM aux radiator from the Performance Power Kit and hopefully it will be enough to solve this problem. But it would be interesting to get some info about a working setup on the track.
    Road course track it's the best place to really test tunes after dyno & you guys seems to be in the right track. It's a 2008 E82 135i Manual transmission with upgraded SETRAB oil cooler, remapped elect. water pump w/fan, M3 LSD w/additional 2 additional clutch pack, FMIC, RB Turbos, removed secondary katalyzer w/3.5" exhaust, suspension work & sport brakes w/pads. The tune has also has the kennfeld KUEHLPIMX (Tmot/Toel temp power reduction increased) & some modified codeword for eliminating cornering torque limitation on non-LSD N54 & increased pressure ratios to eliminate annoying wastegate oscilation hunt. Also, the torque limp mode increased & will limp into stock oe boost 8.7psi just in case.

    The car was practically calibrated for 93 octane & to pass emissions. When you add 100octane, it will boost .1 bar more.

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    What is kennfeld??
    From all the things I've lost,
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I shot Vasil an email on the side since he sent me this link. Given the code is happening when on track and on stage 0, it leads me to think it's something mechanical causing the WGDC system to have to go out of its range. We'll have to see if we can catch a behavior in some logs as the car gets hot.

    Enrico's car seems to have too much WGDC being requested. His car is boosting better than the RB cars I have been working with. We are working together to dial in his tune.

    One last hurdle with the stock bolt on turbos we are dealing with is the AT cars. We are working on dialing in the torque requests to keep the transmission in sync for a good, fast, and smooth shift.

    Cheers,
    Rob

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