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  1. #1
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    VAG (volkswagen/audi) 115 coils

    ok so according to the swedens these coils are supposed to be the shiznet, supposedly on mickeys 1000hp m3.
    I just bought a set which was pretty cheap $112. they are the newest style which is 06c-905-115m

    measured resistant was 380 ohms which according to the web is a 5v pull up style coil.
    which leads to how to control them...
    questions:
    does proefi do pull up/ pull down 5v circuitry?
    does the hpf aem do pull up/ pull down 5v circuitry?
    the stock bmw dme (supposedly) is a 5v pull down circuit before the ignitor in the dme.

    as far as fitment they fit perfect, stock height.

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    Why has no one posted in this thread? I would love to know more. Sorry, I cant add anything. But are these supposed to give similar performance to Okadas for a tiny fraction of Okada price. Is this right? 112usd for six coils? This sounds so incredible. Who knows any more about this?

    I this them?The guy wants 10 bux a piece for them!

    vagsg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46952
    Last edited by Bdave; 04-16-2012 at 03:05 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Why has no one posted in this thread? I would love to know more. Sorry, I cant add anything. But are these supposed to give similar performance to Okadas for a tiny fraction of Okada price. Is this right? 112usd for six coils? This sounds so incredible. Who knows any more about this?

    I this them?The guy wants 10 bux a piece for them!

    vagsg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46952
    The issue is how to control them, and you're not going to get an answer on that from many people on this forum. Neel probably hasn't seen this thread yet, but he's likely to know exactly how to use these. I do not.
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    yes that is the issue. for people on the stock dme you will need to build a circuit that drops down to 5v and is a pull up style input for the vag coils. I will be working on this, this week, shouldn't be too difficult. as for the people with standalone it should be as easy as setting the settings and possibly swapping the jumpers. I will be working on the aem platform shortly.

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    Ok guys I scoped out the 5v signal inside the dme and found out it is infact a pull down style circuit

    Click here to enlarge

    But I think I have a way around it and you dont have to open up the dme.

    Click here to enlarge

    That's a quick drawing where you take the 5v reference voltage input from the dme (Maf, coolant sensor, cam, crank ect) feed it to a 100k resistor, after the resistor send that 5v input to the vag coil pin 3 then theother end of the resistor to the coil wire of the dme. I'll test it tomorrow if I get a chance. I also have a Audi s5 in the shop which seems to use the same coils I would like to test it first to make sure it's a pull up circuit like stated on the net

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    Ok guys I scoped out the 5v signal inside the dme and found out it is infact a pull down style circuit

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...efabb5c6-1.jpg

    But I think I have a way around it and you dont have to open up the dme.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...07f845f1-1.jpg

    That's a quick drawing where you take the 5v reference voltage input from the dme (Maf, coolant sensor, cam, crank ect) feed it to a 100k resistor, after the resistor send that 5v input to the vag coil pin 3 then theother end of the resistor to the coil wire of the dme. I'll test it tomorrow if I get a chance. I also have a Audi s5 in the shop which seems to use the same coils I would like to test it first to make sure it's a pull up circuit like stated on the net
    Interesting info....but that diagram scares me. I would want an isolated 5V source.....something the cam and crank sensors didn't share. I'll shoot Neel a note....
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    I pretty sure internally all the sensors with a 5v reference share the same 5v feed from the dme. I could be wrong though. you could always use battery voltage and drop it down with a potentiometer but Im not sure how it would effect the transistor when battery voltage changes. the 5v reference circuit pretty much stays the same.

    interested to hear what Neel has to say, Im not the best electrical engineer.

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    Sure, you can get a stock DME to trigger these, but its hardly optimized for them.

    First off, TTL coils (coils that require a 5V pullup) are often internally current limited. Putting a pullup on an ignition circuit to drive them ignores the fact that you really don't have control over coil charge time, can't do a load adder, etc. Secondly, they're more complex and typically less durable.

    I've not run into a limitation on a stock E46 M3 coil but I can't comment on what our 1000+hp applications run - they always worked so I never paid attention. The Pectel systems have 20A coil drivers internally which have been excellent in almost every coil-on-plug application we've done. For Vi-PEC or MOTEC systems, we use high-current external drivers from companies like NLR, instead of the current limited Bosch igniter common in many applications. In many installs, the limitation is not the coil, but the driver in the ECU and how its used.

    -Neel
    Neel Vasavada
    Apex Speed Technology
    2947 S Sepulveda Blvd
    Los Angeles, CA 90064
    310.314.2005 (p)
    310.496.0951 (f)
    www.apexspeedtech.com
    info@apexspeedtech.com

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Sure, you can get a stock DME to trigger these, but its hardly optimized for them.

    First off, TTL coils (coils that require a 5V pullup) are often internally current limited. Putting a pullup on an ignition circuit to drive them ignores the fact that you really don't have control over coil charge time, can't do a load adder, etc. Secondly, they're more complex and typically less durable.

    I've not run into a limitation on a stock E46 M3 coil but I can't comment on what our 1000+hp applications run - they always worked so I never paid attention. The Pectel systems have 20A coil drivers internally which have been excellent in almost every coil-on-plug application we've done. For Vi-PEC or MOTEC systems, we use high-current external drivers from companies like NLR, instead of the current limited Bosch igniter common in many applications. In many installs, the limitation is not the coil, but the driver in the ECU and how its used.

    -Neel
    I agree, using the stock dme you can't control the dwell (unless Nick G is able to change that). Very good info on the Bosch current limited igniter (transistor). the euro guys seem to have great success with these coils and rave about them, I already purchased them so I'll try them out. I believe it may be a benefit to some of the people using a stock dme and coils (or maybe the aem and its coil drivers). Any comments on using the 5v reference circuit in my crude diagram?

    P.S. the e46 uses siemans DME with motorola ignitors/transistors but probably current limited just like the bosch ones.

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    Strike 1. I tried the cicuit above and it didn't work. even when the dme wasn't grounding the circuit the vag coil was. pin 3 which is the signal wire to the coil has 380ohms to ground, so with the 100k resistor and a 5v ref it was droping to .019v after the resistor. so I need to rethink the circuit and try again.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bdave Click here to enlarge
    Why has no one posted in this thread?
    Probably because most people don't know about these coils.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    Strike 1. I tried the cicuit above and it didn't work. even when the dme wasn't grounding the circuit the vag coil was. pin 3 which is the signal wire to the coil has 380ohms to ground, so with the 100k resistor and a 5v ref it was droping to .019v after the resistor. so I need to rethink the circuit and try again.
    Any luck?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Any luck?
    haven't done anything else yet, on my way to coachella so it wont see any more progress till next week.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    haven't done anything else yet, on my way to coachella so it wont see any more progress till next week.
    If you contact Andreas Arthurson from PPF he will tell you everything you need

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    haven't done anything else yet, on my way to coachella so it wont see any more progress till next week.
    I thought Coachella was over with?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I thought Coachella was over with?
    They are doing it 2 weekends this year

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mikecoupe Click here to enlarge
    If you contact Andreas Arthurson from PPF he will tell you everything you need
    thanks, I'll do that

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    Kudos for actually trying stuff instead of just talking about it.

    I really don't know much about this topic...and would like to learn more.
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    ok guys here is the next circuit attempt and it might be actually easier.

    Click here to enlarge

    the coil input pin measures 380ohms so if you use battery voltage (coil supply voltage) to a 750ohm resistor the coil should be supplied with 5v and then connect the coil ground(trigger) from dme to inbetween the 750ohm resistor and the coil input that should supply the 5v pull up circuit. only thing im not sure about is when you measure resistance in a open componet it sometimes has a way of changing its value when current is applied, with a 750 ohm resistor at 15v the coil should see about 5v and at 12.5v the coild should see 4.1v so it should still be enough to trigger the coil. also Ive been reading that these coils are "smart" coils and if the dwell is set for too long it will not fire. I hope 3ms at idle is not too much. I will report back when I get a chance to try it out.


    P.S. waiting on reply email from Andreas from ppf

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    P.S. waiting on reply email from Andreas from ppf
    Let us know what he says.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Let us know what he says.

    Strike 2. I built the circuit and tested it out. It misfires on the cylinder with the coil so no worky. I scoped out the signal

    Click here to enlarge

    And it actually looks pretty good, I wish it would drop down farther but still should work. Maybe my understanding of pull up vs pull down is backwards, maybe the coil actually uses a pull down input... Im going to try and scope out a Audi while it's running and see what's up before I start beating my head against a wall. No reply emails yet... Looks like I'm on my own again on this one. But don't worry I'll figure it out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by hobbit382 Click here to enlarge
    Looks like I'm on my own again on this one. But don't worry I'll figure it out.
    Wish we could help you.

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    It's not big deal. As soon as I can scope out a Audi I can figure out what it actually wants to see

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    if your down in la? i can prolly have someone help you out with that if they use em on the b5 s4

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Well I scoped out an Audi today....

    Click here to enlarge

    It's the same signal type as the BMW dme (internally to the dme) since I already have that tapped into with the greddy emu all I would have to do is send that output to the coil instead of back to the dme. The BMW dme is all fancy and stuff so they fire the coil once then 3-5 more times to make a "clean" burn. I wonder what effect this will have on the Audi coil. Also the factory dme has 3ms of dwell at idle while the Audi has 2.4ms. I will report back once I test it.

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