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    Procede Ignition Advance Monitoring on all 6 Cylinders - Discussion Thread

    Just pulled this post off e90 from Shiv...Looks like Procede has access to Ignition Advance on all six cylinders...

    Interested in discussion and possibilities this opens up for Procede?

    Following is quoted from Shiv:

    Who's there?
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    Procede Individual Cylinder Ignition Advance Monitoring Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    We've been running it on our 700hp single turbo for a little while. We will be porting it over to the standard twin turbo software later this week. Which means it won't be too long before this update will be available for all our Procede users.

    I don't like giving teasers but I will say that this new function will do more than just monitor things Click here to enlarge

    Shiv

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    @dzenno been asking about this for a while...thought Shiv tried to explain why it wasn't important or needed at all back then...

    Feels like a joke how features missing is treated as unnecessary/complaining by haters to later be marketed as the $#@!! Does this ring a bell (thinking about fueling resistors/using a base flash and a piggy etc etc.)
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    All I gotta say is, this is long overdue.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno been asking about this for a while...thought Shiv tried to explain why it wasn't important or needed at all back then...

    Feels like a joke how features missing is treated as unnecessary/complaining by haters to later be marketed as the $#@!! Does this ring a bell (thinking about fueling resistors/using a base flash and a piggy etc etc.)
    Though I think it is great that this is coming to piggy's as well, hope BMS adds this to the JB4 as well (if it is possible without flashing the DME) I would love to listen to all cylinders...
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    OMG, this is $#@!ing crazy.

    The guy is probably pulling the info from CAN bus. CAN bus becomes saturated at high rpms if a lot of channels are logged in. As a result the refresh frequency drops.
    From all the things I've lost,
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    lol omg

    And if course this has been running on their 700hp single for "some time" ... what like a couple hours? Lol

    But wait this is just useless data and asking for it gets you banned on e90post...what a load of crap

    Terry, would you grab this please hehe
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    Ah, so we'll get limp-mode free maps next week I guess, due to these great newly-found feature? That's great news!! Fortunately it didn't take long to find a fix, unlike the V4 misfire saga... Click here to enlarge

    I'm starting to get fed up with things Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    OMG, this is $#@!ing crazy.

    The guy is probably pulling the info from CAN bus. CAN bus becomes saturated at high rpms if a lot of channels are logged in. As a result the refresh frequency drops.
    The procede is only capable of monitoring 10 channels at once.

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    I thought the Procede was too *good* to have individual cylinder ignition monitoring Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The procede is only capable of monitoring 10 channels at once.
    I bet that was also deemed sufficient at the time it was designed. Like I said: using CAN bus values for tuning can be extremely unreliable and high RPMS. ...but what do I know..
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    I thought the Procede was too *good* to have individual cylinder ignition monitoring Click here to enlarge
    I think there is a difference between what is *needed* for tuning and what is actually *desired* by customer. I think both Terry and Shiv actually do sometimes add requested features even if they are not useful for the actual tuning, sweeps gauges on startup, CAN Flap... Just to name a few. People get what they desire... I guess Terry will probably also add that capability in the JB4 logging channels soon, just a matter of time. Its actually nice to see more, and probably even useful for debugging bad cylinders (plugs, coilpack and injectors issues).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    I bet that was also deemed sufficient at the time it was designed. Like I said: using CAN bus values for tuning can be extremely unreliable and high RPMS. ...but what do I know..
    Not sure why you assume its used for "high speed" tuning changes, as far as I know, and I might be wrong, but piggyback adds/remove fuel / timing on a much lower timeframe than spark to spark timeframe. (Even boost its much lower, being a mechanical thing) I think they do changes/log in a matter of 30 msec interval or so and I don't see why it would have to react at a 8.6msec rate (spark rate at 7k rpm). The DME is still doing its job at that rate, even doing its cylinder by cylinder ignition retard, its always been the case and it will always be. If the piggyback wish to adjust global aggressiveness or autotune over time to the noisy cylinders then it doesn't need to do it at "high speed".

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kalud Click here to enlarge
    I think there is a difference between what is *needed* for tuning and what is actually *desired* by customer. I think both Terry and Shiv actually do sometimes add requested features even if they are not useful for the actual tuning, sweeps gauges on startup, CAN Flap... Just to name a few. People get what they desire... I guess Terry will probably also add that capability in the JB4 logging channels soon, just a matter of time. Its actually nice to see more, and probably even useful for debugging bad cylinders (plugs, coilpack and injectors issues).
    Are you saying monitoring timing on all cylinders is not needed for proper tuning?? How would you determine if you are pushing the limits or not if you're only monitoring 1/6 of your cylinders and only monitoring the quietest one of them all?
    the fact that the DME in this car is fast and advanced enough to control knock and pull timing on individual cylinders fast enough to reduce the risk of screwing your engine, does not equate tuning the engine when you're almost blind !
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Are you saying monitoring timing on all cylinders is not needed for proper tuning?? How would you determine if you are pushing the limits or not if you're only monitoring 1/6 of your cylinders and only monitoring the quietest one of them all?
    the fact that the DME in this car is fast and advanced enough to control knock and pull timing on individual cylinders fast enough to reduce the risk of screwing your engine, does not equate tuning the engine when you're almost blind !
    If you'll monitor 1, why monitor any of them lol that's always been a shortcoming...Shiv played it off as not needed every time, now he's added it...same old $#@! over and over...guys willing to put up with the bs are pretty pathetic...he could've just said he'll work on adding it but no, rather say its not needed, ban those asking about it all the while working hard to get it done and then release it with the next update lol same $#@! happened for v2 to 2.5/3 procede update...same $#@! will happen again...nothing new around here
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    If you'll monitor 1, why monitor any of them lol that's always been a shortcoming...Shiv played it off as not needed every time, now he's added it...same old $#@! over and over...guys willing to put up with the bs are pretty pathetic...he could've just said he'll work on adding it but no, rather say its not needed, ban those asking about it all the while working hard to get it done and then release it with the next update lol same $#@! happened for v2 to 2.5/3 procede update...same $#@! will happen again...nothing new around here
    I know exactly what you mean and that is exactly the thing people on E90post can't grasp. There is nothing wrong with adding a new feature, just don't say it is not needed and ban people for asking, and then a couple of months later ANNOUNCE IT AS HUGE FEATURE....
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Are you saying monitoring timing on all cylinders is not needed for proper tuning?? How would you determine if you are pushing the limits or not if you're only monitoring 1/6 of your cylinders and only monitoring the quietest one of them all?
    the fact that the DME in this car is fast and advanced enough to control knock and pull timing on individual cylinders fast enough to reduce the risk of screwing your engine, does not equate tuning the engine when you're almost blind !
    No I'm not saying that, but exactly like the JB3/4 does for years now (use DME to control ignition retard when not using the CPS module) its proven to be quite reliable. The Procede does retard/advance on a global basis and still let the DME adjust individual cylinder. Now, with the added feature those can be used for tuning on a global basis for sure and I think its a good thing. Was it *needed* for proper tuning ? I don't think so. Its an improvement for sure.

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    Buddy, I agree with the fact that its an improvement but I disagree with it not being "needed".

    Take this scenario for instance: you let teh procede run its autotuning algorithm. one of the variables that it uses for autotuning is ignition on cylinder 1 which is the quietest. It keeps pushing the limits until the ignition on cylinder 1 starts to crap out and then it backs off. right? well, by the time cylinder 1 craps out, GOD knows what is happening on the rest of your cylinders!
    that's why its needed and necessary to monitor timing on all your cylinders!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kalud Click here to enlarge
    No I'm not saying that, but exactly like the JB3/4 does for years now (use DME to control ignition retard when not using the CPS module) its proven to be quite reliable. The Procede does retard/advance on a global basis and still let the DME adjust individual cylinder. Now, with the added feature those can be used for tuning on a global basis for sure and I think its a good thing. Was it *needed* for proper tuning ? I don't think so. Its an improvement for sure.
    Funny how you worded that. It "let's" the dme adjust timing on individual cylinder basis lol it has a choice?

    Oh, and of course, who cares about monitoring ignition timing, i mean really in the end its only what makes the engine produce any power and if not monitored right (i.e. tuned for MBT) takes it out...

    Given your statements you should be running just a basic boost controller because really, is anything better needed for proper tuning really, rest of the stuff is just fluff/improvements, not really needed
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    Buddy, I agree with the fact that its an improvement but I disagree with it not being "needed".

    Take this scenario for instance: you let teh procede run its autotuning algorithm. one of the variables that it uses for autotuning is ignition on cylinder 1 which is the quietest. It keeps pushing the limits until the ignition on cylinder 1 starts to crap out and then it backs off. right? well, by the time cylinder 1 craps out, GOD knows what is happening on the rest of your cylinders!
    that's why its needed and necessary to monitor timing on all your cylinders!
    By the time cylinder 1 craps out, DME's know what is happening to the rest of the cylinders and its already retarding those...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kalud Click here to enlarge
    Not sure why you assume its used for "high speed" tuning changes, as far as I know, and I might be wrong, but piggyback adds/remove fuel / timing on a much lower timeframe than spark to spark timeframe. (Even boost its much lower, being a mechanical thing) I think they do changes/log in a matter of 30 msec interval or so and I don't see why it would have to react at a 8.6msec rate (spark rate at 7k rpm). The DME is still doing its job at that rate, even doing its cylinder by cylinder ignition retard, its always been the case and it will always be. If the piggyback wish to adjust global aggressiveness or autotune over time to the noisy cylinders then it doesn't need to do it at "high speed".

    Dude, think a bit for a minute here. If you are tuning a high output high revving engine you MUST make the tune damn near perfect or the failure would be on a grandiose scale. You don't make tons of power by puttering around 1500 rpms, now do you? N54 makes the meat of its power between 3000 and 5500 rpms on stock turbos. Shiv is going to push his big singe power band as high as possible, which means he will NEED individual cylinder ignition values at high engine speeds. ...and CAN bus readouts become unreliable at high engine speeds when a lot of channels are logged in. See where this is going?...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Kalud Click here to enlarge
    By the time cylinder 1 craps out, DME's know what is happening to the rest of the cylinders and its already retarding those...

    Except that Procede unit does not and then fights with DME to advance the timing, no?
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    so Again, relying on the DME to save your engine. Well I prefer to have a well rounded tune that accounts for all variables and parameters. Whether we're talking about accounting for timing, or AFR targeting, or or or...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Except that Procede unit does not and then fights with DME to advance the timing, no?
    Exactly right, why would I want the tune to keep wrestling my DME!
    SOLD --'07 E90 335i, PTF COBB E50, HFS4, ER CP, ETS 7", AA DP, Vishnu Exhaust, DCI, ACT, Nitto Nt555

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    Well, I don't wish to argue all day with all that negativity. Ignition timing are indeed important for tuning I didn't meant to say the opposite. I think its was correct the way it is right now making timing changes based on 1 cylinder given it was a global timing advance/retard applied, but its better to use the noisier cylinder for sure.

    Piggyback vendors didn't have those values available for some time, now they have it.

    I don't care if you dislike Vishnu's attitude towards the handling of that in the past, but I am able to read between lines and make my own opinion, like most.

    Just to clears it up right up front, I own a JB4, a Procede and wait for Cobb to get their stuff ported on the n55 to get an AP. Exactly like you, this whole tuning thing is an hobby for me. I appreciate seeing new features and enhancement on those 3 tunes.

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    ^^ Good attitude! +1 rep point from me.

    And yes, everyone here knows that this individual cyl. timing is a good thing for Procede users. For as long as you are clear on how Shiv operates, then all is good. We are just upset with his methods. Way too many sheep think Procede is the "Jesus Tune"
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    Well its going nowhere because we both are assuming thing... Piggybacks are connected on the powertrain CAN and not the diagnostic CAN, so there is no gateway in between, I *assume* its fast enough but really I don't know... You assume the piggybacks cannot read fast enough at high RPM, fine that you opinion. I don't say it can, I really don't know. But I don't take your word for the truth either.

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