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  1. #1
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    Apparently the N20 MAP sensor is no good, per Shiv

    Shiv states that the only way they can reliably read boost is with an external AEM 3.5 bar sensor connected directly to the Procede.

    Limitation of piggyback at play or making people believe a Procede is the only way to run a single turbo?

    All I gotta say is, it's only a matter of time before we see if Shiv is right or wrong.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Shiv states that the only way they can reliably read boost is with an external AEM 3.5 bar sensor connected directly to the Procede.

    Limitation of piggyback at play or making people believe a Procede is the only way to run a single turbo?

    All I gotta say is, it's only a matter of time before we see if Shiv is right or wrong.

    Yes I read that as well, I am really wondering if should take his word for it, the AEM sensor I am sure you should be able to use it with any platform.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I've been running an N2O sensor for a week or two. Works great! I love the stealth factor and easy install. A couple general comments on his comments:

    1) With isolated boost control the throttle is generally open full time. And when it moves and starts to close you're also aware of that. I don't believe there is much difference in terms of boost accuracy either way. Reading boost closer to the turbo makes reacting to changes a little faster too.
    2) I have not seen how his circuit board relay system works when the procede is powered down but it's possible the reason the N2O sensor was abandoned is due to design issues.
    3) I don't really see the need for an extra analog input even with the AEM sensor. Just read it with the same analog input you're using to read the OEM TMAP sensor. Unless, there is some specific reason you must have the OEM sensor signal in place. See comment #2.
    4) The AEM sensor might be a cheaper alternative. So if that works out fine for them I don't see much of an issue either way.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 03-26-2012 at 09:59 PM.

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    Hasn't Cobb been using it for a few weeks, with no issue? Click here to enlarge

    Wonder if @dzenno has started to use his yet?

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    I haven't used it yet. Don't worry about Shiv's comments. Dude's just gotta do what he's gotta do to get procede to work...i haven't yet had a chance to get the n20 tmap on the car and get started on it as I'm still waiting on the harnesses to arrive in the mail from Terry..takes a while
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    I haven't used it yet. Don't worry about Shiv's comments. Dude's just gotta do what he's gotta do to get procede to work...i haven't yet had a chance to get the n20 tmap on the car and get started on it as I'm still waiting on the harnesses to arrive in the mail from Terry..takes a while
    Cool between Terry and you, we should have a better handle on this.

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    Really its between Rob@Cobb, Terry and my constant desire to f* with this stuff Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Hi Shiv,

    If you want to discuss the sensor why not post here where I might reply?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv
    Yes, with the Procede's isolated boost control, the throttle blade is generally open. Except when it's not. Like between shifts, while transition from partial to full throttle (and visa versa), during traction control events or any situation where actual boost is greater then the boost control setpoint. It is during these conditions where a manifold mounted sensor and a charge pipe mounted sensor will read differently. Often by as much as several PSI.
    As you know the N55 has a 2.5bar before and after the throttle body. We have plenty of experience working with that system as the N55 JB4 reads and uses both. And having done so I'm a little "meh, so what?" on N54 pre vs. post throttle boost reading personally. The manifold sensor gives a slightly more accurate representation of true load but the throttle sensor better matches how you want the PID system to respond. e.g. when the throttle closes due to DTC pre-throttle boost spikes causing the PID to lower the gain. Post throttle boost drops causing the PID to raise the gain. In that situation lowering the gain is normally the correct response. Using other parameters like internal boost target and throttle allow either system to work just fine if properly programmed. I guess what I'm saying here is I fail to see the magnitude of significance that justifies this grandiose announcement. But kudos on connecting a boost sensor to a vacuum line and writing several paragraphs on it. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv
    The Procede reads a 0-5v analog 3.5 bar MAP signal just like it reads a 2.5 bar sensor. Or a fuel pressure sensor. Or an o2 sensor. To suggest that opting for a true manifold referenced load sensor (over a charge pipe referenced sensor) is due to computer hardware limitations has no merit.
    You clearly misread or misunderstood the point. At ambient pressure the N2O sensor outputs 1.2v, while the OEM sensor outputs 1.9v. So, depending on how you've configured your bypass relay this may or may not be an issue for you when the procede is powered down. Since I found no credible reason to switch over to the AEM sensor other than doing it cheaper or trying to be different I was suggesting that might be a contributory factor.

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    Can Shiv post? lol
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Good question! I've seen him post on the forum before. Either under his account or his employees. Did they ban him?

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Can Shiv post? lol
    He doesn't seem to know how to answer a phone, or call you back. Posting seems a lot more difficult than either of those.

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    With his joke fiasco, we may have put him in time-out for a little while. Wouldn't be an issue if he manned up and sponsored, but I don't think he likes posting where he can be challenged intelligently

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    2 out of 4 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Quite the opposite LM... I think Shiv does like it. Most forum goers like a good argument at times, and Shiv's no exception. You sure like to play pseudo-mod in a section that doesn't pertain to you any longer. And actually prevent some decent discussions slinging around your rep points. Your bias is hurting the info on this forum lately.

    The manifold versus pre-throttle discussion is interesting with Terry's point of WG control, but then you'd be lacking in AFR, timing, and other engine tuning response... manifold pressure would typically be lower so not a big deal i guess.

    I'm curious about the IAT sensor and guess those wires are retained?

    With a remapped MAP sensor, there would be no more pass through map for twins running a piggy?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Quite the opposite LM... I think Shiv does like it. Most forum goers like a good argument at times, and Shiv's no exception. You sure like to play pseudo-mod in a section that doesn't pertain to you any longer. And actually prevent some decent discussions slinging around your rep points. Your bias is hurting the info on this forum lately.

    The manifold versus pre-throttle discussion is interesting with Terry's point of WG control, but then you'd be lacking in AFR, timing, and other engine tuning response... manifold pressure would typically be lower so not a big deal i guess.

    I'm curious about the IAT sensor and guess those wires are retained?

    With a remapped MAP sensor, there would be no more pass through map for twins running a piggy?
    Good point, being that they are scaling the 0-5V output across 3.5 bar instead of 2.5 bar, wouldn't the stock tune have issues resolution-wise when the piggyback is in passthrough?

    I would ask the same question of Cobb as well since the same issue presented to piggybacks in passthrough, would apply to Cobb when the tune is unmarried.

    Then again, Cobb's been running that sensor for quite a while now so apparently they got it all figured out. Who knows. I'm not really interested in pushing the boost all that much more than what the RBs are currently putting out (21 psi tapering to 18). I'll let @dzenno do that testing for us!

    Can't wait for my set to get thrown on soon!

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    The JB4 pass through map works just fine. How the procede works in pass through mode, and when ignition is off (but DME is awake doing sensor roll call and calibration) is anyone's guess. Can't say I care enough to check their circuit and see but it would be included in any conversation related to MAP sensor management.

  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The JB4 pass through map works just fine. How the procede works in pass through mode, and when ignition is off (but DME is awake doing sensor roll call and calibration) is anyone's guess. Can't say I care enough to check their circuit and see but it would be included in any conversation related to MAP sensor management.
    Good deal. So shouldn't pose any problems when the AP is unmarried or when the JB4 is on Map 0.

  17. #17
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    JB4 Map0 no problem. Because even on map 0 we can do sensor math. AP removed won't work though.

  18. #18
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Can Shiv post? lol
    Yep.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Quite the opposite LM... I think Shiv does like it. Most forum goers like a good argument at times, and Shiv's no exception. You sure like to play pseudo-mod in a section that doesn't pertain to you any longer. And actually prevent some decent discussions slinging around your rep points. Your bias is hurting the info on this forum lately.
    Contribute enough and you can say what you want and influence discussion. A lot of finger wagging for someone who has contributed very little here.

    I haven't seen any discussions prevented or hurt by his use or rep points or anyone else for that matter. Then again I can look at the rep history... and you can't. So, let's try and make our points based in reality okkk?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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  20. #20
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    JB4 Map0 no problem. Because even on map 0 we can do sensor math. AP removed won't work though.
    Ah, ok. Roughly speaking, the N54 sensor would spit out, say 1 - 1.3V, vs 0.6 - 0.8V on the N20 sensor at the same boost pressure and the car would perceive an underboost condition and likely limp?

    Forgive my lack of technical knowledge!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Ah, ok. Roughly speaking, the N54 sensor would spit out, say 1 - 1.3V, vs 0.6 - 0.8V on the N20 sensor at the same boost pressure and the car would perceive an underboost condition and likely limp?

    Forgive my lack of technical knowledge!
    Wouldnt the DME raise boost quite a bit then since it is fooled by the new N20 sensor?

    If the jb4 is out of the car that is...
    Click here to enlarge
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  22. #22
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    Wouldnt the DME raise boost quite a bit then since it is fooled by the new N20 sensor?

    If the jb4 is out of the car that is...
    Good question. I'll shoot Rob an e-mail tomorrow and pick his brain. I haven't really been following this N20 MAP sensor stuff too much so I'm just speculating. No factual information intended. Click here to enlarge

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    Terry question for you. Do you model dme perceived actual boost off dme setpoint, or scaled MAP? Just curious

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Terry question for you. Do you model dme perceived actual boost off dme setpoint, or scaled MAP? Just curious
    We create the DME perceived boost and send it to the DME. On say map 0 (JB4 off) then it matches actual boost. With the N20 3.5 bar sensor in place we rescale the output so the DME believes it is still running an OEM 2.5 bar sensor.

  25. #25
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    I understand this, but the performance maps I see 2 possibilities to model what the DME is seeing: DME setpoint or apply some scaling to the actual MAP signal. The reason I'm asking is that I was just thinking about the "theory" in stacking.

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