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    Exclamation Marcus' E46 M3 Blown Motor Diagnosis - THE RESULTS ARE IN

    To get everyone up to speed. Marcus has the HPF stage 3 turbo system on his M3. He decided to swap out his fuel system and EMS and go with ProEFI. Marcus had issues with the car and shipped it to us for diagnosis and repair. Here is what we found.







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    Last edited by HPF Chris; 03-14-2012 at 03:22 PM.
    STAGE 1 M3 TURBO KIT SALE - $13,500!!!!
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    HorsepowerFreaks.com
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    Product questions or to purchase - sales@horsepowerfreaks.com

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HPF Chris Click here to enlarge
    To get everyone up to speed.

    I think you shot yourself in the foot posting this video.

    I've told Marcus to take all the information that has been obtained and seek the opinion of a completely independent shop. I don't think your diagnosis fits what the parts are saying.

    I'm betting the ring gap was too tight just like Jason has stated. It caused the ring lands to break. The excessive friction from a tight ring gap most likely heated up the sleeves which led to the cracks in the block.

    I strongly believe if an independent, nonbiased shop, looks at this information, they will state ring gap as the cause.

    I'm curious to find out if I'm right Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I think you shot yourself in the foot posting this video.

    I've told Marcus to take all the information that has been obtained and seek the opinion of a completely independent shop. I don't think your diagnosis fits what the parts are saying.

    I'm betting the ring gap was too tight just like Jason has stated. It caused the ring lands to break. The excessive friction from a tight ring gap most likely heated up the sleeves which led to the cracks in the block.

    I strongly believe if an independent, nonbiased shop, looks at this information, they will state ring gap as the cause.

    I'm curious to find out if I'm right Click here to enlarge
    Lol I'm gonna take a wild guess that you haven't looked at to many damaged motors?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Lol I'm gonna take a wild guess that you haven't looked at to many damaged motors?
    I've built at least a dozen, some small/big block mopars, honda's, VW's and a couple of 350's. Back in the early 90's I had a big block Mopar I ran quite a bit of nitrous through. I've replaced enough melted spark plugs and TRW pistons with holes in them to know the difference between a lean failure and failure due too tight of a ring gap.

    That failure was from ring gap. One could argue the tune caused it, but only because the tune was too aggressive for the ring gap, not because the tune itself was bad. Jason at ProEFI didn't build the motor so he had no way to know the motor had such a tight ring gap. Normally you keep a loose ring gap on motors like these.

    Bottom line.. if your going to run E85 at high boost.. you'll need a looser ring gap than whatever HPF currently has spec'ed. That's the lesson learned here.
    Last edited by ccsykes; 03-10-2012 at 01:53 AM.

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    Just read the E46 thread. Did JP really leave ? So who is doing the tuning now ? I'm guessing he is under a non-compete or non-disclosure agreement. I bet he has some stories to tell.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by J.J. Click here to enlarge
    Just read the E46 thread. Did JP really leave ? So who is doing the tuning now ? I'm guessing he is under a non-compete or non-disclosure agreement. I bet he has some stories to tell.
    It is my understanding he left shortly before mine and Marcus's cars were done.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by J.J. Click here to enlarge
    Just read the E46 thread. Did JP really leave ? So who is doing the tuning now ? I'm guessing he is under a non-compete or non-disclosure agreement. I bet he has some stories to tell.
    JP started a new company turbo'ing Lotus's.. radium engineering .. makes some pretty bad ass stuff!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I've built at least a dozen, some small/big block mopars, honda's, VW's and a couple of 350's. Back in the early 90's I had a big block Mopar I ran quite a bit of nitrous through. I've replaced enough melted spark plugs and TRW pistons with holes in them to know the difference between a lean failure and failure due too tight of a ring gap.

    That failure was from ring gap. One could argue the tune caused it, but only because the tune was too aggressive for the ring gap, not because the tune itself was bad. Jason at ProEFI didn't build the motor so he had no way to know the motor had such a tight ring gap. Normally you keep a loose ring gap on motors like these.

    Bottom line.. if your going to run E85 at high boost.. you'll need a looser ring gap than whatever HPF currently has spec'ed. That's the lesson learned here.
    Ok then please explain by what method incorrect ring gap burns the head in that way? And cracks an iron block through a darton sleeve? And don't say heat because if he was running E85 his egt's should have been way down unless he was detonating like a mother. Another thing is before the heat from friction on the bores would have been sufficient to crack the block you would have seen ALOT more damage to the piston. Also every ring gap failure I've seen has scored the bore pretty much all around but from what we saw in the video this was just in one spot. Oh and btw nitrous is a different animal then boost when it comes to going through pistons and the like.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    It is my understanding he left shortly before mine and Marcus's cars were done.
    So that explains alot. With their main dude gone the true R&D and tuning went with him. No wonder they have kept that quiet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Ok then please explain by what method incorrect ring gap burns the head in that way? And cracks an iron block through a darton sleeve? And don't say heat because if he was running E85 his egt's should have been way down unless he was detonating like a mother. Another thing is before the heat from friction on the bores would have been sufficient to crack the block you would have seen ALOT more damage to the piston. Also every ring gap failure I've seen has scored the bore pretty much all around but from what we saw in the video this was just in one spot. Oh and btw nitrous is a different animal then boost when it comes to going through pistons and the like.
    I saw no signs of detonation or lean condition on the head, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I said well before this incident, that I didn't think the S54 was a good motor for sleeves. If you need me to, I can point you to that post. The cylinder wall thickness on the S54 is simply not beefy enough to support sleeves IMHO. That is why they cracked. The sleeves most likely oval'ed, which led to the ring failure and cracked the block.

    If Chris wants to be able to truly determine the cause, he needs to check both the cylinders and the piston roundness. I think if he did, he would find ring gap, piston clearance and the sleeves all played a roll in the issue. It certainly wasn't the tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I think you shot yourself in the foot posting this video.

    I've told Marcus to take all the information that has been obtained and seek the opinion of a completely independent shop. I don't think your diagnosis fits what the parts are saying.

    I'm betting the ring gap was too tight just like Jason has stated. It caused the ring lands to break. The excessive friction from a tight ring gap most likely heated up the sleeves which led to the cracks in the block.

    I strongly believe if an independent, nonbiased shop, looks at this information, they will state ring gap as the cause.

    I'm curious to find out if I'm right Click here to enlarge
    Seems like you are instigating to a degree because you switched setups/shops...

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    Drama

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Drama
    No kidding.. someone told me to get a hobby because I work to much.. I may have chose the wrong hobby.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Seems like you are instigating to a degree because you switched setups/shops...
    Sticky.. take the information and have someone you know that you feel knows a lot about engines and ask them what they think. You want a big story.. break it..

    Look at the pictures. The first ring is intact, it is the second ring that is broken. The damage on the piston is located at the point where the second ring broke. Look at the machined edges of the piston. There is no damage. Look at the top edge of the piston, it shows signs of scoring. Look at the top of the piston, the valve relief edges etc.

    The picture clearly indicated clearance issues. There are no signs of detonation or running lean. If there are please point them out to me. The block is cracked, so it's safe to say the liners are not stable. I believe this was the result of a sleeve failure, which led to a clearance issue. Or a clearance issue that resulted in excessive heat.. which caused a sleeve failure.

    I'm not instigating anything, I'm just stating facts. I'm not repeating what someone else has said either.. I'm speaking from experience. Folks don't seem to believe I actually worked on cars for quite some time. I wasn't always Mr. Money Bags who could cut a check.
    Last edited by ccsykes; 03-11-2012 at 03:01 PM.

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    Sidenote. Proefi for sale. Brand new in box.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Seems like you are instigating to a degree because you switched setups/shops...

    you know his pro-efi setup blew up too right? i noticed he didnt say a peep about that here. he was trying to keep it a secret but those little birdies are hard to keep quiet. that puts pro-efi tuned e46 m3's at about a 60+% failure rate. thats why he is pointing the finger, he has to make it HPF's fault, that the motors are popping under the pro-efi.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TwinturboM3
    I bang the chickens on my farm 60-130 times a day.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Funkboy316 Click here to enlarge
    you know his pro-efi setup blew up too right? .
    My motor didn't "blow up" it had a similar problem to what Marcus had. It failed because of a piston oil squirter that failed.. and was found sitting in the bottom of my oil pan. Since the bottom of my piston wasn't getting any oil, it over heated the piston and wrist pin and had a similar result to what happened with Marcus's car.

    The reason we kept it secret is because we didn't want any drama over it. I didn't want to deal with HPF ever again, so I just told Jason to fix it. I had no desire to turn my motor issue into a pissing match even though I could have.

    No, this whole drama is because Chris is so hell bent on laying the blame somewhere else, that he is attacking everyone and everything. I want to point out that Chris is the one who went around telling everyone my motor was bad.

    Just like with Marcus's car, he has blown this issue way out of proportion and when all the data is looked at, it becomes obvious HPF is at fault, or at least the builder and the specs are at fault.

    Funky, you don't have any experience working on, building or racing cars. So tell me what purpose your opinion has here?

    Marcus has already stated he doesn't believe the excuse Chris is giving him. You need to realize that we owners of these cars know the WHOLE STORY. We know all the details. We know all the things that have been said to us by the shops. There isn't a single person other than us, the owners of the cars, that know the truth.

    I want you to read this post by Marcus.. This is the owner of the car talking..

    http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...9&postcount=71

    Now you tell me.. here you have two guys, who had thier cars built by HPF at the same time, the same stage.. pretty much the same everything. We are both basically blaming HPF for the problem. Marcus is just more politically correct about it.. But read his post and tell me what is says..

    Let me break it down for you.. Marcus and my car were the first major builds to come out of HPF after JP left. JP is who designed, built and tuned the HPF Turbo Kit to put HPF on the map. He left before our cars were finished. Now that JP is gone, they have John, who is a very capable mechanic and shop forman, but he is not an engineer or a tuner.

    When you are willing to accept that fact that HPF is no longer the company it once was because JP left.. then maybe I could take you seriously.

    So as it stands, you have two Stage 3 customers who are not happy. You going to start bashing Marcus now? The community is catching on..

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    Hpf has been great with me when motor blew. I love when something happens and HPF are the Devils own. 3k proefi brand new for sale. Stg3 friend has it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Hpf has been great with me when motor blew. I love when something happens and HPF are the Devils own. 3k proefi brand new for sale. Stg3 friend has it.
    You would have better luck selling it on E46fanatics. There's not many people that visit this particular forum.

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    haha they temporarily banned me at E46fanatics. I guess Chris whined again to the moderators to close the thread about Marcus's engine. Then there was so much flack given by forum members to reopen the thread that they opened it back up. I provided FACTS, 100% Facts as they were related to my own build, and I get banned for it, lol..

    Yo Chris.. you really screwed up posting this video. I can NOT wait for Marcus to take all this info to an independent shop and find out what a bull $#@! artist you are.

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    To much trash and bickering on that forum. I'm a laid back dude forum people bring the worst outta me. I just lurk and pop up here and there. Car is under knife.

    I was going to buy and maybe get MaxPsi tune but my Aem works fine. Don't care much for e85 see no need.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge


    Funky, you don't have any experience working on, building or racing cars.
    im still always fascinated why you say this in every thread? what leads you to believe that i dont work on my own car?

    yes i may not be a plumber,mechanic,turbo kit designer, engine builder,welder,pro driver,engineer,fabricator,master investor,public relations superman, or nut cheese licker like yourself. but i, like many others have the potential to work on our own cars. for whatever reason you seem to think you are the only one who can turn a wrench.

    i intentionally didnt comment at all on any of marcus' posts or threads (until you brought me in accusing me of posting under a false name) because i have respect for him. make no mistake about it, i dont need to hide, i dont like you its obvious.

    trust me, you arent the only one that is capable of working on a car. in fact, most are probably more capable than you.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TwinturboM3
    I bang the chickens on my farm 60-130 times a day.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Sticky.. take the information and have someone you know that you feel knows a lot about engines and ask them what they think. You want a big story.. break it..

    Look at the pictures. The first ring is intact, it is the second ring that is broken. The damage on the piston is located at the point where the second ring broke. Look at the machined edges of the piston. There is no damage. Look at the top edge of the piston, it shows signs of scoring. Look at the top of the piston, the valve relief edges etc.

    The picture clearly indicated clearance issues. There are no signs of detonation or running lean. If there are please point them out to me. The block is cracked, so it's safe to say the liners are not stable. I believe this was the result of a sleeve failure, which led to a clearance issue. Or a clearance issue that resulted in excessive heat.. which caused a sleeve failure.

    I'm not instigating anything, I'm just stating facts. I'm not repeating what someone else has said either.. I'm speaking from experience. Folks don't seem to believe I actually worked on cars for quite some time. I wasn't always Mr. Money Bags who could cut a check.
    I'm not disagreeing with you on the technical issues with the motor here as I don't know the full story but you have switched to a pretty negative HPF stance and are essentially undermining their video here saying someone else should "verify" these results.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Funkboy316 Click here to enlarge
    you know his pro-efi setup blew up too right? i noticed he didnt say a peep about that here. he was trying to keep it a secret but those little birdies are hard to keep quiet. that puts pro-efi tuned e46 m3's at about a 60+% failure rate. thats why he is pointing the finger, he has to make it HPF's fault, that the motors are popping under the pro-efi.
    I'm not sure why I missed that. I'm a bit disappointed he essentially hid info yet has the audacity to attack others.

    So why is everyone acting like the Pro-EFI is so great when it has such a poor track record? Why the hype?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    You would have better luck selling it on E46fanatics. There's not many people that visit this particular forum.
    Odd, the classifieds work quite well for people considering how often I see parts sold and I'm not sure what you define as many because we keep hitting new user online records like over a thousand online recently. Also about to cross 10k member mark. Frankly, I keep getting the impression you are throwing your opinion around, which is baseless just as in this instance, as if it were fact.

    Just because you don't spend much time here does not mean others don't: There are currently 373 users online.

    Sunday at 10 PM btw...

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