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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    ^ word...

    Surge is basically a compressor stalling. Think of an airplane tilted too aggressively during takeoff, a steep angle of attack, and the airplane is not moving fast enough. It will lose lift, that is called stall. Compressor blades undergo the same phenomena and when you pass the surge line, you are trying to create a very low flow condition at a high pressure ratio, which it cannot do. Like trying to fly a big airplane at a 45 degree angle at only 50 mph.


    Also, when I look at exhaust manifold designs the first think I look at, well second thing after overall flow characteristics is wastegate placement. Too many manifolds out there, I mean TOO MANY put the wastegates in the stupidest postions. Some people put them on one side of the manifold on a twin scroll, some tilt the entry of the wastegate into the flow, basically a Y pipe pointing backwards, etc.. I have seen some seriously ass backwards $#@! that I just ask myself, one google searth would have fixed those basic things.

    Twin scroll designs are very sensitive to pulse placement. If you're gonna put together any type of turbo manifold and you want it to have nice smooth bends with constant area piping, at least put the right pulse placement (primary feeds) into the collector. Because if you don't you might as well just make a log style header and save tons of money, weight, and space.
    If you look at the entry of the EFR you will see they undivide it to allow both banks to bleed off of the waste gate...at that point it's no longer a divided housing other than the a/r decrease caused by the dividing wall as you've already merged pulses. I know I'm not going crazy but I have seen a divided housing with either a t3 or t4 flange that keeps the division into a common internal gate, i think it was for a diesel application. That turbine with a factory actuator and t61 compressor would be the ticket at 1/2 the price of an efr!Click here to enlarge

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    If you look at the entry of the EFR you will see they undivide it to allow both banks to bleed off of the waste gate...at that point it's no longer a divided housing other than the a/r decrease caused by the dividing wall as you've already merged pulses. I know I'm not going crazy but I have seen a divided housing with either a t3 or t4 flange that keeps the division into a common internal gate, i think it was for a diesel application. That turbine with a factory actuator and t61 compressor would be the ticket at 1/2 the price of an efr!Click here to enlarge
    It's all good, take a look at this pic. You can see the channel is separate all the way to the flapper. When the flapper is closed, the scrolls remain independent.

    Click here to enlarge

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    ^ word...

    Surge is basically a compressor stalling. Think of an airplane tilted too aggressively during takeoff, a steep angle of attack, and the airplane is not moving fast enough. It will lose lift, that is called stall. Compressor blades undergo the same phenomena and when you pass the surge line, you are trying to create a very low flow condition at a high pressure ratio, which it cannot do. Like trying to fly a big airplane at a 45 degree angle at only 50 mph.


    Also, when I look at exhaust manifold designs the first think I look at, well second thing after overall flow characteristics is wastegate placement. Too many manifolds out there, I mean TOO MANY put the wastegates in the stupidest postions. Some people put them on one side of the manifold on a twin scroll, some tilt the entry of the wastegate into the flow, basically a Y pipe pointing backwards, etc.. I have seen some seriously ass backwards $#@! that I just ask myself, one google searth would have fixed those basic things.

    Twin scroll designs are very sensitive to pulse placement. If you're gonna put together any type of turbo manifold and you want it to have nice smooth bends with constant area piping, at least put the right pulse placement (primary feeds) into the collector. Because if you don't you might as well just make a log style header and save tons of money, weight, and space.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    It's all good, take a look at this pic. You can see the channel is separate all the way to the flapper. When the flapper is closed, the scrolls remain independent.

    http://www.full-race.com/store/image...-content-9.jpg
    Now that's very nice did not notice that I'll call one of my turbo suppliers and see if they can do a more suited compressor wheel in the 7670 housing! As I said previously I really like much about the EFR I just don't understand their thought process in the power level size turbo we need in this application which is strange as the gt30-35 size turbo was something they really hit on in their last series of turbos
    Last edited by TurboBullett; 03-05-2012 at 03:11 PM.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    It's all good, take a look at this pic. You can see the channel is separate all the way to the flapper. When the flapper is closed, the scrolls remain independent.

    http://www.PorscheBoost.com/images/i...content9-1.jpg

    That is BADASS.
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    Click here to enlarge

  5. #55
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    For the record, @dzenno, I hate you for making me want this. I just got this car and have no where close to the money for this. Guess I will be keeping this one for a while.

  6. #56
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    @ATP, I waited a really long time to start seeing these options come to life and I'm honestly thrilled to finally start seeing these come together now that fueling seems to be under control
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    @ATP , I waited a really long time to start seeing these options come to life and I'm honestly thrilled to finally start seeing these come together now that fueling seems to be under control
    Yeah, you got some Canadian bimmer guys so excited about this, one of them went to our buddy's shop this morning and talked about the install for it. Click here to enlarge

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Surge is basically a compressor stalling. Think of an airplane tilted too aggressively during takeoff, a steep angle of attack, and the airplane is not moving fast enough. It will lose lift, that is called stall. Compressor blades undergo the same phenomena and when you pass the surge line, you are trying to create a very low flow condition at a high pressure ratio, which it cannot do. Like trying to fly a big airplane at a 45 degree angle at only 50 mph.
    hehe...or you can do both...compressor stall in the T-6 two weeks ago...no power, fireballs over the canopy...plane stalled to before there was time to could recover. Luckily was able to get some power back.

    Never occured to me you could get a compressor stall in a turbo, I guess it makes sense though. So is it a result of actual compressor AOA like in my planes gas turbine or what? The low speed part matches up...
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge

  9. #59
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    Now that I think about it, isn't compressor surge when you get pressure built up in the intact tract with no escape (ie throttle closed and no blow-off/bypass valve after hard boost) and pressure escapes backwards through the turbo jarring the compressor? We are talking about something completely different here so why the same terminology?

    Edit: Or are they the same with above just being the result of sudden throttle lift with no/poorly set/jammed BOV while what we are talkign is insufficient energy in the exhaust/turbine to spin the larger compressor at such low speeds? Think i just answered my own question but feel free to elaborate. Either way we end up with the compressor going through fast slow "surges" until it gets to an engine rpm that will sustain constant boost correct?
    Last edited by Forced Air; 03-05-2012 at 04:58 PM.
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Life is so much more fun with a nemesis. I miss Shiv. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #60
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by farbmw Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, you got some Canadian bimmer guys so excited about this, one of them went to our buddy's shop this morning and talked about the install for it. Click here to enlarge
    Lol who?
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #61
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    @dzenno, don't get me wrong, this is very exciting. Just disappointing that I don’t have the cash flow for it yet. I know what you mean on waiting forever. I jumped the gun on a big turbo for my SRT-4 back in the day. Took several more years for companies to come up with proper tuning solutions and kits that made DDing the car MUCH better.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Now that I think about it, isn't compressor surge when you get pressure built up in the intact tract with no escape (ie throttle closed and no blow-off/bypass valve after hard boost) and pressure escapes backwards through the turbo jarring the compressor? We are talking about something completely different here so why the same terminology?

    Edit: Or are they the same with above just being the result of sudden throttle lift with no/poorly set/jammed BOV while what we are talkign is insufficient energy in the exaust/turbine to spin the larger compressor at such low speeds?
    I think it's similar in nature. Some compressor covers (on other turbos) are drilled or vented to prevent this. Notice, this one has a built in bypass valve that redirects the extra pressure directly to the compressor intake. I wonder if that would alleviate this issue?

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Now that I think about it, isn't compressor surge when you get pressure built up in the intact tract with no escape (ie throttle closed and no blow-off/bypass valve after hard boost) and pressure escapes backwards through the turbo jarring the compressor? We are talking about something completely different here so why the same terminology?

    Edit: Or are they the same with above just being the result of sudden throttle lift with no/poorly set/jammed BOV while what we are talkign is insufficient energy in the exhaust/turbine to spin the larger compressor at such low speeds? Think i just answered my own question but feel free to elaborate. Either way we end up with the compressor going through fast slow "surges" until it gets to an engine rpm that will sustain constant boost correct?

    You pretty much answered your own question Click here to enlarge

    It has a lot to do with AOA and velocity triangles. Think of what happens the instant a throttle plate is closed on a turbocharged car. We all know this, turbo basics 101, the compressor is still spinning. But what does that REALLY mean?

    It means for a very short amount of time, during the point at which the throttle blade goes from open to close, you are moving along on the compressor map from one point, to a point that is to the left and above the point you were just at. Because you are encountering a low flow and high pressure ratio (pressure spike) situation which is exactly where the surge line is located, above and to the left.
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    Click here to enlarge

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Forced Air Click here to enlarge
    Now that I think about it, isn't compressor surge when you get pressure built up in the intact tract with no escape (ie throttle closed and no blow-off/bypass valve after hard boost) and pressure escapes backwards through the turbo jarring the compressor? We are talking about something completely different here so why the same terminology?

    Edit: Or are they the same with above just being the result of sudden throttle lift with no/poorly set/jammed BOV while what we are talkign is insufficient energy in the exhaust/turbine to spin the larger compressor at such low speeds? Think i just answered my own question but feel free to elaborate. Either way we end up with the compressor going through fast slow "surges" until it gets to an engine rpm that will sustain constant boost correct?

    Even though @ DBFIU already answered your question, I thought these two links gave a pretty good explanation.

    http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/...nation-within/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

    The Wiki link has a section on "Anti-Surge" valves (aka BOVs), some explanation on surge there as well.

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    More than one year ago, when i decided to built upgraded turbo system to my n54, my tech friends have pointed to BW EFR 7670 with twin-scroll turbine housing as a good option to my 450HP application. Of course with some small modificaton on the top of the EFR turbo. As i am located at Hungary/Europe, i have contacted to different BW reseller at USA. BW could not ship twin-scroll turbine house at that time, so after 4 or 5 months of waiting i gave up and cancelled my order. I dont know, wheather twin-srcoll housing for EFR 7670 is available at this moment or not.

    Now we are working on engine rebuild, two hybrid single scroll turbo with custom manifold. At least all parts of my new upgraded twins are purchased and shipped and waiting for assemble.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    I think it's similar in nature. Some compressor covers (on other turbos) are drilled or vented to prevent this. Notice, this one has a built in bypass valve that redirects the extra pressure directly to the compressor intake. I wonder if that would alleviate this issue?
    Yea I have seen that, I thought it was pretty standard on most newer designs. Kinda functions like dumping bleed air off an axial flow I suppose.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    You pretty much answered your own question Click here to enlarge

    It has a lot to do with AOA and velocity triangles. Think of what happens the instant a throttle plate is closed on a turbocharged car. We all know this, turbo basics 101, the compressor is still spinning. But what does that REALLY mean?

    It means for a very short amount of time, during the point at which the throttle blade goes from open to close, you are moving along on the compressor map from one point, to a point that is to the left and above the point you were just at. Because you are encountering a low flow and high pressure ratio (pressure spike) situation which is exactly where the surge line is located, above and to the left.
    Got it. So same thing is happening with pressure ratio just on is caused by throttle closure w/ no dump and the other is boost building fast enough at first that the engine can't provide enough torque through the turbine for the compressor to sustain it. And...then you get surge...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ATP Click here to enlarge
    Even though @ DBFIU already answered your question, I thought these two links gave a pretty good explanation.

    http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/...nation-within/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger

    The Wiki link has a section on "Anti-Surge" valves (aka BOVs), some explanation on surge there as well.
    ThanksClick here to enlarge
    Never thought I would see the day...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Life is so much more fun with a nemesis. I miss Shiv. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by csl335i Click here to enlarge
    More than one year ago, when i decided to built upgraded turbo system to my n54, my tech friends have pointed to BW EFR 7670 with twin-scroll turbine housing as a good option to my 450HP application. Of course with some small modificaton on the top of the EFR turbo. As i am located at Hungary/Europe, i have contacted to different BW reseller at USA. BW could not ship twin-scroll turbine house at that time, so after 4 or 5 months of waiting i gave up and cancelled my order. I dont know, wheather twin-srcoll housing for EFR 7670 is available at this moment or not.

    Now we are working on engine rebuild, two hybrid single scroll turbo with custom manifold. At least all parts of my new upgraded twins are purchased and shipped and waiting for assemble.

    More info! Maybe in a separate thread?

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    talked to one of my Borg Warner turbo distributors and have what may be good news and bad news...first the good, these turbos actually flow air out to the rpm lines on the compressor map obviously efficiency drops as you move to the right of the center island BUT they do have more in them at lower boost levels(pump gas levels) making the 7670 a good choice(maybe the best choice using the criteria i was looking for opriginally) for 600+/-hp applications.
    The BAD-my distributor is BIG Borg Warner distributor and he said they are rare to nonexistent(to him anyway)this is not to say that Full Race doesnt have the market cornered or cant import them. another downside is the price of these turbos I have seen are premium prices in the $1600-2000 range.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    talked to one of my Borg Warner turbo distributors and have what may be good news and bad news...first the good, these turbos actually flow air out to the rpm lines on the compressor map obviously efficiency drops as you move to the right of the center island BUT they do have more in them at lower boost levels(pump gas levels) making the 7670 a good choice(maybe the best choice using the criteria i was looking for opriginally) for 600+/-hp applications.
    The BAD-my distributor is BIG Borg Warner distributor and he said they are rare to nonexistent(to him anyway)this is not to say that Full Race doesnt have the market cornered or cant import them. another downside is the price of these turbos I have seen are premium prices in the $1600-2000 range.
    I thought Borg Warner was a U.S. company. Is this not correct? I wonder why they are so hard to come by.

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    an easy way in laymens terms to think about compressor surge is the engine is consuming more air than the compressor wheel can feed it at a certain airflow(power) and pressure ratio. some ways to combat this are surge ports on the compressor inlet(to bypass the surge back to the inlet), a bigger turbine wheel or turbine AR(to slow the turbo spool down) or tune the turbo to be lazy by keeping the wastegate open. Surge feels like your blowoff or bypass valves are opening and closing very fast under wide open throttle then goes away as you actually enter into the compressor map. THE BEST combat to surge is to properly size the turbo for the application at all power and boost levels!
    Last edited by TurboBullett; 03-05-2012 at 06:58 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Lol who?
    He didn't say he was talking to me and working on a car at the same time, but the guy did come to his shop as soon as he opened.Click here to enlarge

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    I thought Borg Warner was a U.S. company. Is this not correct? I wonder why they are so hard to come by.

    BW is based in Germany and was a conglomerate of KKK and Switzer turbo companies.
    BorgWarner Turbo Systems
    Worldwide Headquarters GmbH

    Marnheimer Strasse 88
    67292 Kirchheimbolanden
    Germany

  23. #73
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    Well I still like the GT35R option as well, and it can be had internally gated (only on a T3, though). What do you guys think of this with a T3 housing with either the mid or large A/R option?

    GT3582R:

    http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=GRT

    EDIT: In other words, do you think it would support the necessary flow on the turbine side?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    BW is based in Germany and was a conglomerate of KKK and Switzer turbo companies.
    BorgWarner Turbo Systems
    Worldwide Headquarters GmbH

    Marnheimer Strasse 88
    67292 Kirchheimbolanden
    Germany
    Okay, well that can definitely introduce some supply issues. Not sure why I always thought they were U.S. based. Thanks!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    BW is based in Germany and was a conglomerate of KKK and Switzer turbo companies.
    BorgWarner Turbo Systems
    Worldwide Headquarters GmbH

    Marnheimer Strasse 88
    67292 Kirchheimbolanden
    Germany
    What does the KKK stand for?

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