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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No, 600's are around 11.6 psi stock. The 65 is 22 psi stock as rated by MB but boost reading show that is just a spike that tapers down to 17 or so.

    Regardless, 35 psi on some big ass turbos on an M275 is going to flat out abuse the same amount of back pressure on the GT-R.

    We have never seen the V12 really pushed like it can be.

    Ah Sticky, but this is not true anymore. There is a guy on MBworld that did exactly that to his SL65. I thought his name is Soul searcher if I am not mistaken. Anyway, He removed the log manifolds with the cast in turbos, and went to tube headers with two HUGE snails mounted in the fenders. He was supposedly near the 1000H range, but has been fighting electrical gremlins last time I heard. This car was at the Texas mile last year, but was not running strong as of yet.

    I'll dig up the details. Or send a pm to Benz O as he has all the real dirt these days.

    PS: It is the log manifolds that KILL all 600 and 65 motors. ONLY alternative is to replace them, aka BIG BUCKS.

    Well at least too much for my blood, that is with two small kids anywayClick here to enlarge

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
    Ah Sticky, but this is not true anymore. There is a guy on MBworld that did exactly that to his SL65. I thought his name is Soul searcher if I am not mistaken. Anyway, He removed the log manifolds with the cast in turbos, and went to tube headers with two HUGE snails mounted in the fenders. He was supposedly near the 1000H range, but has been fighting electrical gremlins last time I heard. This car was at the Texas mile last year, but was not running strong as of yet.
    I know who you are talking about but that car hasn't yet shown its potential I believe.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
    I'll dig up the details. Or send a pm to Benz O as he has all the real dirt these days.
    I think there is a thread on it in the M275 section here.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
    PS: It is the log manifolds that KILL all 600 and 65 motors. ONLY alternative is to replace them, aka BIG BUCKS.
    Yep, it needs to be done due to the stupid cast crap. I think space restrictions are still an issue though...

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I know who you are talking about but that car hasn't yet shown its potential I believe.



    I think there is a thread on it in the M275 section here.



    Yep, it needs to be done due to the stupid cast crap. I think space restrictions are still an issue though...
    I thought you might my friend. And you are correct that it has NEVER really shown its true potential. I understand they were disappointed at the mile.

    And curse those DAMM engineers at MB for giving us these stupid logsClick here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    And you are also right about the boost trickling away. If memeory serves me right, I have around 18psi at 2000rpm, but it goes down to around 14 at red line. Damm those logsClick here to enlarge

  5. #30
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    So it's a 6 liter V12 with two digit boost, and it just makes 600hp? Is the head not that efficient or what's the cause?

    S54 with almost half displacement makes about the same hp with 13psi.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    So it's a 6 liter V12 with two digit boost, and it just makes 600hp? Is the head not that efficient or what's the cause?

    S54 with almost half displacement makes about the same hp with 13psi.
    Did you read my post? It is the exhaust manifold that limits us. AKA boost starts falling away after about 4500.

    However, did I mention that I have around 700lb/ft of toruqe at 2500Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
    Did you read my post? It is the exhaust manifold that limits us. AKA boost starts falling away after about 4500.
    Yes, cast manifolds suck. But i wasn't talking about tuning potential, i was talking about stock form. I know those little turbos run out of breath near redline, but you said they make 12 psi near redline. 6 liter and 12 psi IMO from AMG should make much more.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Yes, cast manifolds suck. But i wasn't talking about tuning potential, i was talking about stock form. I know those little turbos run out of breath near redline, but you said they make 12 psi near redline. 6 liter and 12 psi IMO from AMG should make much more.

    Okay, okay, no argument hereClick here to enlarge

    As far as the motor is concerned, there are MANY factors why it runs out of steam top end. First exhaust manifolds, enough said. Next SMALL intercoolers, so after a few gears things heat up VERY quick. Going on, small TB. Beleive it or not, the exhaust is one of the ONLY things that doesn't hurt usClick here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Yes, cast manifolds suck. But i wasn't talking about tuning potential, i was talking about stock form. I know those little turbos run out of breath near redline, but you said they make 12 psi near redline. 6 liter and 12 psi IMO from AMG should make much more.
    Look at the torque numbers. The thing is at full boost way earlier than a GT-R. It's basically all raw power down low.

    With a different cam setup and some head work it will make more top end power.

    It simply ultimately has way more potential and will have a fatter curve.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mramg1 Click here to enlarge
    Okay, okay, no argument hereClick here to enlarge

    As far as the motor is concerned, there are MANY factors why it runs out of steam top end. First exhaust manifolds, enough said. Next SMALL intercoolers, so after a few gears things heat up VERY quick. Going on, small TB. Beleive it or not, the exhaust is one of the ONLY things that doesn't hurt usClick here to enlarge
    I hear you man. These German automakers sometimes do things that really piss you off.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky
    Look at the torque numbers. The thing is at full boost way earlier than a GT-R. It's basically all raw power down low.

    With a different cam setup and some head work it will make more top end power.

    It simply ultimately has way more potential and will have a fatter curve.
    Low end is cool, but i really don't care about it. I'm all about top end.

    It has potential, but no one is going to extract in near future whereas VR's are showing their best after just 4 years.

  11. #36
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    Turbos are the replacement for displacement. Slap the same set of turbos on both cars and you'll make more power with the VR.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    Low end is cool, but i really don't care about it. I'm all about top end.

    It has potential, but no one is going to extract in near future whereas VR's are showing their best after just 4 years.
    It's due to the amount of people modding. That V12 up top doesn't exactly run out of breath, it's a constant stream of power from basically anywhere in the rev range. With some huge turbos it will have an absurd top end.

    More people need to tune that motor.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Turbos are the replacement for displacement. Slap the same set of turbos on both cars and you'll make more power with the VR.
    Based on what? Mercedes detunes the Sl65 black series because of the absurd amount of torque it makes. If it got some real turbos it will make more power. It will always have the displacement and cylinder advantage.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Based on what? Mercedes detunes the Sl65 black series because of the absurd amount of torque it makes. If it got some real turbos it will make more power. It will always have the displacement and cylinder advantage.
    Based on the fact that the V12 will choke on the turbine side sooner than the VR will with the same set of turbos and the VR will rev higher. Besides from a purely realistic view let me know when that V12 gets to 1500hp like the VR has. Diesel trucks make tons of torque, how fast are they?

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Based on the fact that the V12 will choke on the turbine side sooner than the VR will with the same set of turbos and the VR will rev higher. Besides from a purely realistic view let me know when that V12 gets to 1500hp like the VR has.
    What, you think it can't just because more people tune GT-R's? There is nothing the VR can't do that a 6.0 liter V12 can't do better. Would be great if we saw dozens of companies pushing the M275 but we don't because the GT-R is basically purchased to be tuned.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What, you think it can't just because more people tune GT-R's? There is nothing the VR can't do that a 6.0 liter V12 can't do better. Would be great if we saw dozens of companies pushing the M275 but we don't because the GT-R is basically purchased to be tuned.
    Again the VR is an oversquare DOHC motor it's gonna breathe and rev much better so it's VE will be much better. The M275 is excellent for what it is meant to do, quickly move heavy ass sedans around and make alot of torque to seem effortless but it chokes up top. It undersquare and sohc man it's meant for low rev grunt not top end. It'll bake the tires but it's not anywhere near as efficient as the VR will be. Again if you put the same set of twins on both cars the VR will make more HP every time.
    Last edited by Jimefam; 02-02-2012 at 11:36 PM.

  17. #42
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    Come on now... let's not compare a car that in stock form costs almost 4 times as much and has a near 200 HP advantage. Give that GTR a tune, FBO and the race is much much closer at a fraction of the cost. Then try it again from a dig and the results are even more astonishing. The GTR may lost in this situation but pound for pound; there is not another car in the world that compares as far as value and technological marvel is compared. That car with a 700 LB disadvantage can keep up with a Ferrari 458 right out of the factory which has equal power... that should say something about the design of the DCT, AWD system and other electronic gizmos in that vehicle.

  18. #43
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    Holy hell I had no idea it was that expensive! I couldn't get on the mb website (on my phone) but I saw C&D quoted it at $320,000?!? Who in their right mind would pay for that? You can save $120k and get an AMS alpha 12 GTR which NO MB will ever touch. Or even a UGR Lambo for that money and you've got a car that looks much better, is more prestigious(if that's ur thing), and is infinitely faster.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It's due to the amount of people modding. That V12 up top doesn't exactly run out of breath, it's a constant stream of power from basically anywhere in the rev range.
    I just saw a graph from these engines, holy $#@!. That's a diesel like powerband. It does run out of breath in higher rpm's!

    But back on topic, in higher boosts i still believe a VR makes more power than a high boosted M275. It seems M275 head isn't efficient and it sucks even more in higher boosts. But VR holds it's efficiency in higher boosts as well. a M275 simply can't make something like 1500hp which VR makes.
    Plus, an Alpha 12 powerband isn't that bad as you think.
    Click here to enlarge

  20. #45
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    Btw for ultimate power potential I'd prefer the N74.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Again the VR is an oversquare DOHC motor it's gonna breathe and rev much better so it's VE will be much better. The M275 is excellent for what it is meant to do, quickly move heavy ass sedans around and make alot of torque to seem effortless but it chokes up top. It undersquare and sohc man it's meant for low rev grunt not top end. It'll bake the tires but it's not anywhere near as efficient as the VR will be. Again if you put the same set of twins on both cars the VR will make more HP every time.
    It will rev a bit higher but no reason the V12 heads/valvetrain/cams can't be addressed.

    The VR is a more efficient design but it will never overcome 12 cylinders and 6.0 liters.

    The M275 will have a fatter curve, spool faster, and can be geared longer. I'll take it with the same twins.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by questforpower Click here to enlarge
    Come on now... let's not compare a car that in stock form costs almost 4 times as much and has a near 200 HP advantage. Give that GTR a tune, FBO and the race is much much closer at a fraction of the cost. Then try it again from a dig and the results are even more astonishing. The GTR may lost in this situation but pound for pound; there is not another car in the world that compares as far as value and technological marvel is compared. That car with a 700 LB disadvantage can keep up with a Ferrari 458 right out of the factory which has equal power... that should say something about the design of the DCT, AWD system and other electronic gizmos in that vehicle.
    The 458 is a stronger car from a roll and does it without turbos. Turbos on the 458 = seeya.

    The GTR masks its weight with the DCT. A lighter car like the 458 with a DCT is a better platform. More expensive, yes, but it's a Ferrari after all.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    I just saw a graph from these engines, holy $#@!. That's a diesel like powerband. It does run out of breath in higher rpm's!

    But back on topic, in higher boosts i still believe a VR makes more power than a high boosted M275. It seems M275 head isn't efficient and it sucks even more in higher boosts. But VR holds it's efficiency in higher boosts as well. a M275 simply can't make something like 1500hp which VR makes.
    Plus, an Alpha 12 powerband isn't that bad as you think.
    Click here to enlarge
    As stated, it has cast manifolds with basic K24 turbos. The porsche guys get big power out of the K24's by modifying them. If the same could be done on the Benz the top end would be insane.

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The 458 is a stronger car from a roll and does it without turbos. Turbos on the 458 = seeya.

    The GTR masks its weight with the DCT. A lighter car like the 458 with a DCT is a better platform. More expensive, yes, but it's a Ferrari after all.
    Note the part where I said there is a 700 LB difference... that is massive. The 458s engine is a marvel but the costs of the vehicle are incredible and atm; the only turbod 458 I've seen put down 700 WHP... still almost half of the worlds fastest GTR.

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by questforpower Click here to enlarge
    Note the part where I said there is a 700 LB difference... that is massive. The 458s engine is a marvel but the costs of the vehicle are incredible and atm; the only turbod 458 I've seen put down 700 WHP... still almost half of the worlds fastest GTR.
    The reason for that is the 458 was on stock internals.

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