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Thread: supercharged M's. Failing motors, and Dishonesty!?

              
   
  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
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    In the two countries with the most questionable fuel qualities yes. Time will only tell but there is a link between the bad plugs and bearings which I will research further. I know of quite a few motors that have gone locally.
    Let's put this in the back of minds. So long everyone can dry sump and spend away.
    I don't see then we the evidence is in the rod bearing and not on the piston.

    BMW has had bearing issues before in newer M motors...

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  3. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    Another topic most people don't pick up on - but since I have 100 or so dyno runs I noticed this: I picked up nearly 3 degrees of ignition in the same ambient air temps/coolant temps between my 16k old spark plugs and new ones. I investigated a power loss for a while and found the culprit. Call NGK USA with the part number of the OEM plugs and they will tell you a far different number of mileage they can be used then BMW USA.
    How often should they be changed?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    BMW has had bearing issues before in newer M motors...
    I was under the impression the original bearings were fine. I thought oiling (or lack thereof) was the culprit and a new bearing design was a cheaper fix than altering the oiling setup?? Anyone? Bueller?? I'm ok with being wrong!

    I was ASSuming you were referring to the S54. If so, that may be a solution down the line. Who knows...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    I was ASSuming you were referring to the S54. If so, that may be a solution down the line. Who knows...
    I was referring to the S54 bearing issue. In that motor, it wasn't detonation that was the problem so I doubt it is here as well. There aren't any issues with the stock tune and none of the motors opened up show it, they show bearing wear.

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    Back in the day, when we were boosting motors that were designed to be NA, the top ring groove on the piston was the "canary in the coal mine". It would show evidence of damage, long before the bearings exhibited any significant signs of abuse. The initial clue was a simple leak-down test. Are the pistons in these motors so stout that they can resist the knock that is destroying the bearings? I would expect that an event that damages the rod bearing would also be evident on the piston too. Am I missing something here?

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    BrenM3 is offline 407.7whp N/A
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    How often should they be changed?
    On a raced car? 10k I'd say to be safe. I was in to about 14 before I saw the power loss.

    Gintani recommends half of that on the S/C cars. My theory is the ionic sensed plugs send false signal when they get worn down.

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    If there is such a thing as an upgraded oiling system on the S65, and I dont know if there is, once implemented if the bearings continue to show wear on them as they usually do then it can most definately be attributed to knock. Detonation basically pounds your bearings with tons of force, and the oil film does not have enough strength to combat that force so metal on metal contact occurs.

    Or, oil starvation. Either way, implement one solution and if the problem goes away then you know what the problem was.
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  9. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Velocity26 Click here to enlarge
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    I would expect that an event that damages the rod bearing would also be evident on the piston too
    Same and we are only seeing bearing wear... and seeing it in stock motors too.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
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    once implemented if the bearings continue to show wear on them as they usually do then it can most definately be attributed to knock
    Shouldn't knock that is happening to a degree to affect the rod bearings show up somewhere else? Like the piston/rings?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I was referring to the S54 bearing issue. In that motor, it wasn't detonation that was the problem so I doubt it is here as well. There aren't any issues with the stock tune and none of the motors opened up show it, they show bearing wear.
    May be OT, but I thought the other M motor bearing catastrophe (e.g. S54) was actually an oiling issue that was evident when bearings seized. The bearings were fine however the oiling system was not adequate for an 8k redline. Instead of fixing the oiling issue, BMW simply swapped to another bearing and started the TWS 10-60 fiefdom.

    Could the oiling issue mentioned here be minimized by a different rod bearing in the S65? Just wondering as the pistons were fine the S54 and appear to be usable in the S65.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    May be OT, but I thought the other M motor bearing catastrophe (e.g. S54) was actually an oiling issue that was evident when bearings seized. The bearings were fine however the oiling system was not adequate for an 8k redline. Instead of fixing the oiling issue, BMW simply swapped to another bearing and started the TWS 10-60 fiefdom.
    You may be correct but if it was an oiling system problem how did the 10-60 and new bearings put an end to it?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    Could the oiling issue mentioned here be minimized by a different rod bearing in the S65? Just wondering
    I'm wondering this same thing.

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    Looser tolerances is my first guess. Maybe different materials? I don't pretend to know.

    But this sounds a lot like the S54 failures I followed before purchasing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MisterEm Click here to enlarge
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    But this sounds a lot like the S54 failures I followed before purchasing.
    The similarity is eerie.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Shouldn't knock that is happening to a degree to affect the rod bearings show up somewhere else? Like the piston/rings?
    I spoke to a few people today that have seen opened motors with the bearing noise. In all cases the pistons where affected. In all cases it was due to detonation on tuned cars. One car I know of lost its warranty as the rpm limiter was at 8800rpm and they picked that up. In terms of stock engines I am still waiting to speak to the guy I know in the BMW claims authorizations to let us know. This is the inspector that approves payouts for warranty work which is 5 years 100,000km here.
    Have you seen the matching pistons to the supposed damaged bearings? I wouldn't take many peoples word for it that the cars where stock especially if its a tuning house that was involved somewhere along the line or its a company that sells dry sumps.
    The sequence this happens is closed plugs a few times due to detonation and eventual bearing knock.
    I would reckon its a non issue if you have the right tune. People gotta start logging their $#@! like the N54 guys instead of taking the tune for granted.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I'm wondering this same thing.
    If it is an oiling problem then just changing the bearing isn't going to help much. You need to increase flow to that bearing and/or increase radial gap clearance at that journal to allow a thicker oil film so there is no metal on metal contact.

    If it is detonation cause, there is nothing you can do to fix that other than tuning. The bearings cannot sustain detonation no matter how good an oil circuit you have.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
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    If it is an oiling problem then just changing the bearing isn't going to help much. You need to increase flow to that bearing and/or increase radial gap clearance at that journal to allow a thicker oil film so there is no metal on metal contact.

    If it is detonation cause, there is nothing you can do to fix
    that other than tuning. The bearings cannot sustain detonation no matter how good an oil circuit you have.
    Quoted for truth. Lot of good discussion going on here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
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    You need to increase flow to that bearing and/or increase radial gap clearance at that journal to allow a thicker oil film so there is no metal on metal contact.
    So you increase flow how?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    So you increase flow how?
    First thing I'd look at would be the journals to see if they can be improved.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    On a raced car? 10k I'd say to be safe. I was in to about 14 before I saw the power loss.

    Gintani recommends half of that on the S/C cars. My theory is the ionic sensed plugs send false signal when they get worn down.
    hhmm.. probably time for me to change mine..

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