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Thread: Meth pumps

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    Meth pumps

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv@Vishnu
    Hi guys,
    For the last several weeks, all our PWM Methanol kits have been shipped with a new pump design specifically manufactured by Aquatec for use in system. Compared to the standard 5800 series pump used by others (Coolingmist, Devils Own, AEM, etc,.) our proprietary pump has some key differences:

    Motorsport grade 2-piece compression fittings & bushings-- A nice upgrade from the usual, somewhat annoying push-in fittings which tend to leak over time. These compression fittings are the same design as the other compression fittings used in the PWM meth kit... just much bigger (for the 1/4" meth tubing) and complete with rubber o-ringed bushing fitting. Unfortunately, they aren't cheap (they cost us nearly as much as the pump itself!). But it also means that they will NEVER leak. Which is a good thing Click here to enlarge

    Higher Flow Rate-- Our pump spins at 1625RPM compared to the standard pump at 1400rpm. As such, it is rated at 1.3GPM (gallons per min) versus the standard pump's 1.0GPM. What this means is that it is able to maintain system pressure better when running multiple nozzles/high meth flow applications. The higher pump RPM also means less pressure pulsations for a smoother operation. This is immediately noticeable (they sound different) when running both pumps side-by-side.

    The price of the new pump (with compression fittings/bushings) is $245. To order, please email us at sales@vishnutuning.com. By no means is this a mandatory upgrade. It's just an improvement to an already well-functioning component. Perhaps something to consider into when it comes time to replace your pump. Older pumps with push-in fittings cannot be retrofitted with compression fittings.

    Cheers.
    shiv
    Hi Shiv,

    FYI, Aquatec has supplied this pump to all their customers for evaluation. According to them it's a marketing change only with no significant pump performance change. We'll be carrying it also around March via CM but only because I think they are switching everything over and we'll have no choice. The price from Aquatec is the same as the current 1.0GPM rated pump.

    On the compression fittings, I've found they are supplied by Camozzi and cost less than $5 each for the 3/8" O ring port to 1/4" compression. The pump on the other hand costs around $130 retail. So I think you've made some math error there.

    The problem with the screw in pump fittings is they often strip out the plastic pump threads rendering the pump useless. Our first 50 pumps or so had those screw in fittings and it was a real PITA. Haven't had any issues since switching to the molded press in fittings. But we do plan to offer the same compression fittings on the rest of the system (nozzle, solenoid) because customers seem to prefer them to the metal push in fittings like we use and those small nozzle push over fittings you use. Click here to enlarge
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    i believe that is a direct definition of "PWNED"


    does he not think other people will see this stuff?Click here to enlarge

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    While I dont know the pricing that you speak of, but the screw in compression fittings, once its installed on the pump, why would there be a need to uninstall the actual compression fitting ever again? I see no issues and if anything its definitely better than the push fittings as I have seen the light with compression fittings! Either way I am glad the direction of meth kits offered in the future will have all compression fittings if possible..They are simply bulletproof

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Cn555ic Click here to enlarge
    While I dont know the pricing that you speak of, but the screw in compression fittings, once its installed on the pump, why would there be a need to uninstall the actual compression fitting ever again? I see no issues and if anything its definitely better than the push fittings as I have seen the light with compression fittings! Either way I am glad the direction of meth kits offered in the future will have all compression fittings if possible..They are simply bulletproof
    What happened is customers would torque in the fittings and strip out the plastic pump threads. In one case they even cracked the pump case. For most it worked out fine, but it was a common problem area, until we switched over. Just an FYI to anyone using them. Tighten them with extreme caution.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    i believe that is a direct definition of "PWNED"


    does he not think other people will see this stuff?Click here to enlarge
    I think he just made some mistake when coming up with his $245 pricing. So I wanted to correct it before he accidentally overcharged for one and had to later refund. Click here to enlarge

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    I dunno but these compression fittings are not easy to come by for the average person...I have emailed about 5 manufacturers and quantity for them is at least 100-200 fittings per order of each sizing...If he can outsource them and get them, more power to him to sell it at a profit.
    Right now I am trying to obtain 10 fittings, and I can't get one of these big companies to make an exception and sell them to me.
    Unreal..
    Last edited by Cn555ic; 01-18-2012 at 11:52 PM.

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    Terry,
    The new pump that we are using is the same exact pump that Aquamist has been using for the last 4 years. There is nothing "prototype" about it. Feel fee to call Aquatec and ask them yourself. Also, if Aquatec is trying to get everyone to switch over to the newer, higher RPM motor, you might want to ask yourself why. But just be careful because the higher motor speed coupled with your stiff bypass spring will cause the pump to run hotter than normal. And your "normal" is already pretty hot.

    Also, the fittings we use aren't from Camozzi. And you are are breaking plastic threads with those fittings because they didn't have the correct thread. With the Aquamist compression fittings, the rubber 0-ring provides the seal, not the thread. Which is why we couldn't even damage the pump head thread if we wanted too. Even if we were to screw and unscrew the fitting over and over again. A good thing when dealing with strong methanol concentrations sprayed in close proximity with hot engine bits.

    One thing you should be aware of is that plastic contracts and expands at higher rate than metals. So using attempted to seal with the thread is going to cause the problems that you described. FWIW, the fittings we use are built specifically for Richard Lamb at Aquamist. Which is why you have not been able to source them. If you did, you'd find that they would cost more than $5 each. Maybe you will figure this out by March. I hope you do a bit more research before using these fittings in customer cars.

    Cheers,
    Shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Terry,
    The new pump that we are using is the same exact pump that Aquamist has been using for the last 4 years. There is nothing "prototype" about it. Feel fee to call Aquatec and ask them yourself. Also, if Aquatec is trying to get everyone to switch over to the newer, higher RPM motor, you might want to ask yourself why. But just be careful because the higher motor speed coupled with your stiff bypass spring will cause the pump to run hotter than normal. And your "normal" is already pretty hot.

    Also, the fittings we use aren't from Camozzi. And you are are breaking plastic threads with those fittings because they didn't have the correct thread. With the Aquamist compression fittings, the rubber 0-ring provides the seal, not the thread. Which is why we couldn't even damage the pump head thread if we wanted too. Even if we were to screw and unscrew the fitting over and over again. A good thing when dealing with strong methanol concentrations sprayed in close proximity with hot engine bits.

    One thing you should be aware of is that plastic contracts and expands at higher rate than metals. So using attempted to seal with the thread is going to cause the problems that you described. FWIW, the fittings we use are built specifically for Richard Lamb at Aquamist. Which is why you have not been able to source them. If you did, you'd find that they would cost more than $5 each. Maybe you will figure this out by March. I hope you do a bit more research before using these fittings in customer cars.

    Cheers,
    Shiv
    I think you're mistaken. The screw in fittings we use are teflon oringed. They seal fine, the issue is screwing a metal fitting in to plastic threads. It simply isn't reliable and the plastic threads are easily stripped. If you screw them in before shipment and then tell customers not to touch them it will mitigate a lot of the headaches. That's what we wound up doing before switching them out.

    RE: The compression fittings Camossi sells them for a lot less than Aquamist does.

    On the pump I'm looking at the pricing and documents from Aquatec. It's the same price and is simply a marketing change, according to them. The only thing proprietary about any of this is your logo that you've stuck on the pump. Click here to enlarge With your solenoid you are limited to ~150psi and with a couple M7 nozzles I don't think you're going to flow anywhere close to 1.0 GPM anyway. Given that you can not control the pump speed with your implementation you'd be better off with a lower RPM pump.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 01-19-2012 at 12:39 AM.

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    Cool

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TerryBMS Click here to enlarge
    I think you're mistaken. The screw in fittings we use are teflon oringed. They seal fine, the issue is screwing a metal fitting in to plastic threads. It simply isn't reliable and the plastic threads are easily stripped. If you screw them in before shipment and then tell customers and tell them not to touch them it will mitigate a lot of the headaches. That's what we wound up doing before switching them out.

    On the pump I'm looking at the pricing and documents from Aquatec. It's the same price and is simply a marketing change, according to them. The only thing proprietary about any of this is your logo that you've stuck on the pump. Click here to enlarge With your solenoid you are limited to ~150psi and with a couple M7 nozzles I don't think you're going to flow anywhere close to 1.0 GPM anyway. Given that you can not control the pump speed with your implementation you'd be better off with a lower RPM pump.
    I've used those teflon fittings before and I know the problems you have had with them. Which is why we would never use them. If you'd like, I can send you an Aquamist fitting and let you see for yourself if you can damage the plastic threads. And then you can admit to being... gasp... wrong.

    As for the pump, the benefit of using a faster spinning, smoother running pump means that it reduces the hammering effect against injection valve. Maybe if you put a undamped pressure gauge in the pressurized meth line, you can see for yourself. But it seems like u like to play this forum game. And that is perfectly fine if that is your thing.

    Also the Aquamist valve itself can hold well over 200psi of pressure. Again, you can test this for yourself. Can you guess the reason why deadhead pressure is set to at 180psi?

    And lastly, instead of posting up misleading/untrue information for folks on this forum to accept without question, try doing at least a minimal amount of research. That means picking up the phone and calling Bill at Aquatec (tech guy) and ordering a set of Aquamist compression fittings for visual inspection/comparison.

    Cheers,
    Shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I've used those teflon fittings before and I know the problems you have had with them. Which is why we would never use them. If you'd like, I can send you an Aquamist fitting and let you see for yourself if you can damage the plastic threads. And then you can admit to being... gasp... wrong.

    As for the pump, the benefit of using a faster spinning, smoother running pump means that it reduces the hammering effect against injection valve. Maybe if you put a undamped pressure gauge in the pressurized meth line, you can see for yourself. But it seems like u like to play this forum game. And that is perfectly fine if that is your thing.

    Also the Aquamist valve itself can hold well over 200psi of pressure. Again, you can test this for yourself. Can you guess the reason why deadhead pressure is set to at 180psi?

    And lastly, instead of posting up misleading/untrue information for folks on this forum to accept without question, try doing at least a minimal amount of research. That means picking up the phone and calling Bill at Aquatec (tech guy) and ordering a set of Aquamist compression fittings for visual inspection/comparison.

    Cheers,
    Shiv
    RE: Fittings screwing metal in to plastic can cause the plastic to strip. Feel free to post a photo of your 3/8" fitting if you'd like. If it's metal, it's going to be a problem area.

    RE: Valve pressure I have not tested the AM valve myself but I've been told it blows open at around 150psi. I have been meaning to get one in here for testing. So we'll see. If it operates properly at 200psi as you say then I'll be happy to post that result. I am also very interested in the pressure drop across it at various duty cycles.

    RE: Pump speed I think you'd be best off matching the pump rating to slightly above the actual flow rating out of the nozzles, reducing the amount of fluid bypassed. But to each their own on that. The 1.3gpm pump costs the same as the 1.0gpm pump and is just as easy to order. At some point it might be all you can order.

    RE: "misleading/untrue" information, I'm pretty sure making false claims of proprietary pumps to justify double the retail price falls in that category. But I'll leave that to the readers to decide for themselves.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Hi Shiv,

    FYI, Aquatec has supplied this pump to all their customers for evaluation. According to them it's a marketing change only with no significant pump performance change.
    Click here to enlarge
    If it's the same pump then why does your version show a bypass pressure of 200 psi on the label while the vishnu version shows 160 psi???

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    If it's the same pump then why does your version show a bypass pressure of 200 psi on the label while the vishnu version shows 160 psi???
    You specify the spring pressure when ordering. It's been rumored they use the lower pressure due to valve limitations, as clearly higher pressure results in superior atomization at 100% duty cycle, but at the very least that is simply a rumor at this point until I personally test the valve. Don't worry I'm sure Vishnu will give customers like you who bought the "old" pump a "really good" upgrade deal on the new one for only $200. Click here to enlarge

    *** EDIT *** I mean our pump is an all new proprietary 200psi design. Vishnu charges $1.53 per PSI but we're only going to charge $1.30 per PSI so even though retail is $260 it's actually a much better deal. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 01-19-2012 at 01:15 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You specify the spring pressure when ordering. It's been rumored they use the lower pressure due to valve limitations, as clearly higher pressure results in superior atomization at 100% duty cycle, but at the very least that is simply a rumor at this point until I personally test the valve.

    Don't worry I'm sure Vishnu will give customers like you who bought the "old" pump a "really good" upgrade deal on the new one for only $200. Click here to enlarge
    You always fail to impress me with your misguided passive aggressive dialogue.

    Hey can i still upgrade my JB3 to a JB4?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    Hey can i still upgrade my JB3 to a JB4?
    Of course! Details, software, and directions on the JB4 are all right here:

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...61&postcount=1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Of course! Details, software, and directions on the JB4 are all right here:

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...61&postcount=1
    So that would cost me about as much as upgrading my meth pump.

    How much are the JB4's selling for on the market......maybe that could help pay for my pump upgrade?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    So that would cost me about as much as upgrading my meth pump.

    How much are the JB4's selling for on the market......maybe that could help pay for my pump upgrade?
    Not sure, maybe $360 used? They are $479 new. Buying and then selling with the JB4 box won't improve your equity situation IMHO so I'd just try to sell the JB3PNP.

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    I'll make this quick....

    RE: Fittings screwing metal in to plastic can cause the plastic to strip. Feel free to post a photo of your 3/8" fitting if you'd like. If it's metal, it's going to be a problem area.
    No sir. I suggest you try us the Aquamist fitting like several thousand others have. I'll post pics on e90post since i can't post here. I've already explained whey they are incapable of stripping threads. Again, this is because the seal is created by a rubber (not teflon) o-ring. And the threads are straight-cut, not tapered.

    RE: Valve pressure I have not tested the AM valve myself but I've been told it blows open at around 150psi. I have been meaning to get one in here for testing. So we'll see. If it operates properly at 200psi as you say then I'll be happy to post that result. I am also very interested in the pressure drop across it at various duty cycles.
    You were misinformed. Test it yourself. If a valve were to "blow open" at 150psi, there would be some pretty serious functionality issues with a methanol system. The reason the pressure is set at 180psi is to improve the response time of the valve since it is designed to open against the direction of pressure. I'm sure you learned a thing or two about the importance of having a fast acting valve when you tried to meter flow using your off-the-shelf valve. And we all know how that turned out. You can order an Aquamist valve and this this yourself. Just make sure your testing procedure is a bit better than what you did when testing their flow meter. Now that was funny. You said it didn't work properly when you tested it. Yet know you say it's probably your "favorite stand alone failsafe".

    And since water isn't compressible, perhaps you can explain the "pressure drop at various duty cycles"? Sounds like someone needs to brush up on their fluid dynamics. Hint: Injection pressure remains constant regardless of DC%.

    RE: Pump speed I think you'd be best off matching the pump rating to slightly above the actual flow rating out of the nozzles, reducing the amount of fluid bypassed. But to each their own on that. The 1.3gpm pump costs the same as the 1.0gpm pump and is just as easy to order. At some point it might be all you can order.
    There is no real-world downside to reducing the amount of meth bypassed on an intermittent duty pump application. There simply isn't enough heat generated in a system when the pump only activates under engine load. For a constant duty application, a variable pump speed (but fixed pressure) application would certainly be ideal. But that would require a bit extra expense/complexity (pressure sensor, additional electronics, etc,.) Also, for a fun experiment, you should measure your bypass volume when your pump at a min of just 30% DC. Hint: It's flowing nearly 70% of it's max capacity. And at 50%, it's flowing nearly 90% of max. This is because these pumps are grossly oversized for your application. And the only reason you are running them is because a better matched smaller pump would run too hot at 200psi.

    RE: "misleading/untrue" information, I'm pretty sure making false claims of proprietary pumps to justify double the retail price falls in that category. But I'll leave that to the readers to decide for themselves.
    Actually, our pump is proprietary to us. Try ordering one. Terry, I'll admit to never offering the cheapest product. That has never been my primary objective. Which is why we have had a perfectly functional meth system for quite some time while you are still talking about meth leaks and broken pump head threads.

    Cheers,
    shiv

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    Hey Shiv Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    No sir. I suggest you try us the Aquamist fitting like several thousand others have. I'll post pics on e90post since i can't post here. I've already explained whey they are incapable of stripping threads. Again, this is because the seal is created by a rubber (not teflon) o-ring. And the threads are straight-cut, not tapered.
    Whether there is a rubber oring, a teflon ring, or nothing at all, straight cut metal threads will without much effort strip out the plastic pump threads. You can spin it any way you'd like. Given the premium you are asking customers to pay for this setup I do understand why you are so aggressively denying any possible issue there.

    You were misinformed. Test it yourself. If a valve were to "blow open" at 150psi, there would be some pretty serious functionality issues with a methanol system. The reason the pressure is set at 180psi is to improve the response time of the valve since it is designed to open against the direction of pressure. I'm sure you learned a thing or two about the importance of having a fast acting valve when you tried to meter flow using your off-the-shelf valve. And we all know how that turned out. You can order an Aquamist valve and this this yourself. Just make sure your testing procedure is a bit better than what you did when testing their flow meter. Now that was funny. You said it didn't work properly when you tested it. Yet know you say it's probably your "favorite stand alone failsafe".
    I'll let you know the testing results including the line pressure on both sides of the valve at lower duty cycle. I imagine they will be very different, we'll see. And I do have concerns with the Aquamist flow sensor as I've stated many times before but all around I like the small package, price point, and reputed reliability. For $170 I don't think a better stand alone turbine based flow sensor product exists. That doesn't mean it's perfect. There is some fundamental flaw with the design IHMO to cause a flow reading against a closed solenoid. But it is what it is. At least it will be working a year after it was installed unlike all the other turbine based options out there. Is a new flow sensor going to be the next overpriced Vishnu PWM meth kit "upgrade" you release?

    Terry, I'll admit to never offering the cheapest product. That has never been my primary objective. Which is why we have had a perfectly functional meth system for quite some time while you are still talking about meth leaks and broken pump head threads.
    Your Labonte system was perfectly functional right? And your "premium" priced PWM methanol system was perfectly functional up until last night? If this same pump which you claim is better and we both know costs the same has been available for the past four years, why did your customers who paid $945 for a pump, solenoid, flow sensor, and bracket, now have to pay again to upgrade to the pump you should have sold them in the first place?

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    Terry, just release this pump "upgrade" for the same price as a conventional Shurflo pump and watch Shiv run with his tail between his legs. Any Vishnu customer who pays $250 for a meth pump is funding the gas money for Shiv's Gallardo.

    FYI, my POS DevilsOwn pump has been problem-free for over two years now. No leaks at the plastic push fittings and flow more than enough meth for my needs. Click here to enlarge

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    ps. just posted up (on e90post) a detailed pic of the Aquamist compression fittings. Compare them to the Camozzi bits Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    ps. just posted up (on e90post)
    Never heard of it.

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    I allways learned that alcohol and rubber do not respond well to one another.
    So IMHO sealing an alcohol tank with rubber o-rings will give problems in the long run no matter what.
    But I could be mistaken. Can someone enlighten me?
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I think he just made some mistake when coming up with his $245 pricing. So I wanted to correct it before he accidentally overcharged for one and had to later refund. Click here to enlarge
    Mistake? Nah daddy needs a new lambo.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Mistake? Nah daddy needs a new lambo.
    He and every one of his customers would be better off if he got a new attitude...
    There are two theories to arguing with women. Neither one works

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