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  1. #26
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    great, superb info, thanks for going one extra mile with this and sharing.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bash Click here to enlarge
    great, superb info, thanks for going one extra mile with this and sharing.
    +1

    Let's keep the scientific research going. This is exciting. Good work dubversion and everyone else who contributes to this pursuit. I'm excited for you to get your car and hopefully be able enjoy good results from your productive approach to this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nailer335xi Click here to enlarge
    +1

    Let's keep the scientific research going. This is exciting. Good work dubversion and everyone else who contributes to this pursuit. I'm excited for you to get your car and hopefully be able enjoy good results from your productive approach to this.
    I have tuned many piggyback and standalone systems and I never bought into the "fuel ceiling" fiasco. What I did buy into was that we hit the fuel ceiling at the factory pulse width mapping with heightened high pressure via piggyback. I run the Cobb currently and they have altered the pulse width mapping and I have not seen a Cobb tuned car big turbo or not run lean yet. I think with this current information that backs up what I've thought all along and was supported by the aforementioned Cobb air fuel ratios that our system is nowhere near maxed out when tuning above and beyond the Cobb base map. One area that does seem like it may become a limit is the factory feed pumps ability to feed the high pressure pump,BUT that's a pretty easy fix as I have built similar systems in the past and know exactly what would have to be done on the N54Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    that's a pretty easy fix as I have built similar systems in the past and know exactly what would have to be done on the N54
    Can you share what would be involved or what you have done in the past that was similar?
    Click here to enlarge

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TurboBullett Click here to enlarge
    I have tuned many piggyback and standalone systems and I never bought into the "fuel ceiling" fiasco. What I did buy into was that we hit the fuel ceiling at the factory pulse width mapping with heightened high pressure via piggyback. I run the Cobb currently and they have altered the pulse width mapping and I have not seen a Cobb tuned car big turbo or not run lean yet. I think with this current information that backs up what I've thought all along and was supported by the aforementioned Cobb air fuel ratios that our system is nowhere near maxed out when tuning above and beyond the Cobb base map. One area that does seem like it may become a limit is the factory feed pumps ability to feed the high pressure pump,BUT that's a pretty easy fix as I have built similar systems in the past and know exactly what would have to be done on the N54Click here to enlarge
    I think majority of issues in the past were based on maxing STFTs… only Terry and Shiv were changing fuel pressure until recently.

    Not sure about flashing and coding, as I’m a computer donk…
    But, I wonder how difficult it is to change a fuel table. Coding is a simple process that chooses an option in the software. When flashing you are uploading new maps, I suppose. So what about just changing table values.

    The fuel tables are either IPW and pressure, OR more simply a table based on fuel mass/pressure, and the DME calculates IPW, and will make adjustments based on actual real time pressure. Probably an assortment of tables that correlate to each other. So you would think simply changing the table values would be sufficient… this is true, except not so simple unless you can feed actual load to DME. BUT changing the table values to correlate to stock load would still give you a flash like response. You would only have to do this on boost and for the most part, piggies ramp boost linear keeping the slope angle between tune/stock constant. The trim window would take care of the meth, race gas mapping. At the most you may have to change pressure slightly.

    Anyway, wonder how difficult to only change couple table values.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I think majority of issues in the past were based on maxing STFTs… only Terry and Shiv were changing fuel pressure until recently.

    Not sure about flashing and coding, as I’m a computer donk…
    But, I wonder how difficult it is to change a fuel table. Coding is a simple process that chooses an option in the software. When flashing you are uploading new maps, I suppose. So what about just changing table values.

    The fuel tables are either IPW and pressure, OR more simply a table based on fuel mass/pressure, and the DME calculates IPW, and will make adjustments based on actual real time pressure. Probably an assortment of tables that correlate to each other. So you would think simply changing the table values would be sufficient… this is true, except not so simple unless you can feed actual load to DME. BUT changing the table values to correlate to stock load would still give you a flash like response. You would only have to do this on boost and for the most part, piggies ramp boost linear keeping the slope angle between tune/stock constant. The trim window would take care of the meth, race gas mapping. At the most you may have to change pressure slightly.

    Anyway, wonder how difficult to only change couple table values.
    Its not difficult at all actually, every cobb map changes fuel tables among others...
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Its not difficult at all actually, every cobb map changes fuel tables among others...
    I know that, but Cobb is a full flash… like coding new values to couple with a piggy, as an additional feature. Could it be done through the piggy or laptop, basically NOT requiring the time, battery power, full copy/rewrite of a flash. only changing a couple tables without copying and reloading.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I know that, but Cobb is a full flash… like coding new values to couple with a piggy, as an additional feature. Could it be done through the piggy or laptop, basically NOT requiring the time, battery power, full copy/rewrite of a flash. only changing a couple tables without copying and reloading.
    Overwriting is always better than tricking... it might be done, but never as well as a reflash can do it.
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I know that, but Cobb is a full flash… like coding new values to couple with a piggy, as an additional feature. Could it be done through the piggy or laptop, basically NOT requiring the time, battery power, full copy/rewrite of a flash. only changing a couple tables without copying and reloading.
    I think you're thinking of procede's fuel maps...i don't think its as simple as that on a flash as everything refers to load and everything relates to everything else because of that...just changing a fuel map/table I don't think would work...you'd need to scale the load appropriately most likely but obviously i'm just talking out of my ass, not sure...
    Click here to enlarge

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno Click here to enlarge
    Can you share what would be involved or what you have done in the past that was similar?
    Sorry for the delay in posting after my last post I headed out to work... Typically their are several ways to increase a pumps flow:
    -increasing voltage to the pump
    -Replacing an intank pump with a higher flow version or multiple pumps
    -adding another pump inline so the original pump doesn't have to work as hard
    -adding another pump inline with a series of check valves
    If and when we truly do reach a fuel ceiling that requires more volume flow to the hpfp I have figured out a pretty sleek way to implement it into the system that will work and keep the rest of the system and sensors happy. With the mass hysteria created on this subject we could have been selling these night and day these past few months. BUT as I have said previous I wasn't sold on this fuel ceiling without first seeing air fuels with altered pulse width and after seeing that it's good we didn't sell the system YET. That's not to say that it won't have to be implemented in the future "WHEN" the lpfp maxes out.

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    That was to be expected. Obviously with ECU tuning you will have direct control over the injectors. Cobb and GIAC will most definitely be able to address this with different maps. The question that I have is whether the injector operations can be adjusted by piggies directly?
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  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    That was to be expected. Obviously with ECU tuning you will have direct control over the injectors. Cobb and GIAC will most definitely be able to address this with different maps. The question that I have is whether the injector operations can be adjusted by piggies directly?
    Flashes have varying levels of control, depending on what you're talking about- they dont necessasrily rewrite algorithms or change logic directly so much as change values and work with existing logic in a system.

    Piggybacks have existed since the late 80s where they literally had injector drivers and took the stock injector pulsewidths of say 2ms at a given rpm and perceived load and adjusted it up or down and drove the injector directly via the piggy. Then the piggyback is basically standalone capable when you want it to take over. On really extreme race enines, factory ecus with flashes arent the norm but rather standalone ECUs since at some point they're just easier to work with.

    The procede and jb4 dont drive injectors directly yet but with the platform aging and becoming more popular, i have to wonder if someone will attempt to wire up a serious aftermarket ecu as a standalone or hybrid piggyback to do just that. Short term, I think flashing has a lot to offer which we havent seen yet.

  13. #38
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    There are one or two standalone ECUs that will control the N54...one of them being the Bosch Motorsport ECU.

    At a cool price of $15k, it's just slightly out of reach of most of us.

    Neel from Apex Speed, myself and a few others discussed this exact dilemma in another thread a few months ago....I gotta dig it up..

  14. #39
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    Direct injection makes it tough to find affordable stand alones.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    There are one or two standalone ECUs that will control the N54...one of them being the Bosch Motorsport ECU.

    At a cool price of $15k, it's just slightly out of reach of most of us.

    Neel from Apex Speed, myself and a few others discussed this exact dilemma in another thread a few months ago....I gotta dig it up..
    I'd like to see that. Thx Matt.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Direct injection makes it tough to find affordable stand alones.
    True but i bet we'll see one soon enough. I recall seeing the electrical part that is an injector driver on the net a long time ago and they were only a few $ ea. Assuming one can lay hands on some that will work with DI and the firmware needed to control them exists in an attainable ecu like proefi, etc, we'll have what we need some day.

    Honestly, even given some decent breakthroughs in flashes, a hybrid piggyback that could work with the stock ecu at low load and drive the injectors, coils, wastegates and everything directly would kick ass on just about everything in the n54/n55/n63 market. Not sure what the value and market size would be but, like the haltech interceptor(procede), it would span platforms and brands so it should be viable. I'd say even at $3000/ea it'd be well worth it.

  17. #42
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    @dubversion

    If you call this engineer please ask how the ecu can measure knock voltage from all 6 cylinders.
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  18. #43
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    I'll compile a list of question tomorrow and probably call him friday. Keeping fingers crossed that once again he'll try to help us all out... I'm pretty sure he was NOT personally involved in the ECU, i'm hoping for a referral.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    There are one or two standalone ECUs that will control the N54...one of them being the Bosch Motorsport ECU.

    At a cool price of $15k, it's just slightly out of reach of most of us.

    Neel from Apex Speed, myself and a few others discussed this exact dilemma in another thread a few months ago....I gotta dig it up..
    I believe it had a price tag between $6500 all the way up to $14k with a few different ecu options
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dubversion Click here to enlarge
    Note to myself: IPW = injection pulse width (= ti)
    Fixed. Click here to enlarge

    Thx for digging into this!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GTR-Dad Click here to enlarge
    Fixed. Click here to enlarge

    Thx for digging into this!
    D'oh ! Typo, sorry, of course injection.

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    Today i had my follow up conversation with the tech guy at continental. Here are the questions and answers. Enjoy !

    Are the pistons forged pistons ?
    - Don’t know

    Does the N54B30 use homogenous or stratified charge under high load ?
    - The engine was developed to run in homogenous mode. The N53 engine was to run in a stratified mode. Although the engine is capable of running in stratified mode, it currently does not.
    It uses an outward opening injector.

    Have you experience with this engine and E85 fuel or do you have any thought on it ? Can e.g. the injectors handle alcohol ?
    We have a lot of experience with E85. Currently, we have an issue that if the injector is hotter than 100 Celsius, we are seeing melting of the fuel filter in the injectors. As long as the temperature of the injector stays under the 100 Celsius, this engine is perferctly capable to run E85. As a matter of fact, it will run E100 without any problem under cold conditions. There is no need to preheat the fuel.
    We are investigating the filter issue, and we hope to have a solution next year. Whether or not we will create injectors for this engine, depends on the market (read: BMW).
    It is not possible to replace this filter yourself; you cannot open the injector to get to that part.

    Is the HPFP pressure of 90 bar constant or is it controlled by the MSD module ?
    It is constant but indeed controlled by the module. The engine has been tested to up to 200 bar. If you keep the HPFP pump below that number, you could inject a lot more fuel. The relation between the amount of fuel sprayed and the pressure is not a linear relation but a Bernulli equation.

    In our earlier conversion, you mentioned that under high load the TI is about 2 ms ? Correct ?
    Yes maximum is 2 ms. Notice that the engine runs under homogenous mode and that means that the injection start in the intake phase. With this engine, it is no problem to keep injection into the compression phase, but not too long; it would be bad for emission. However, if the pressure of the HPFP is increased, this may not be needed.

    The injectors have a maximum of 40 mg/ms spray at 200 bar. This is an increadible amount of fuel, much much more than any solenoid injector. It is this high, because when we designed the application, BMW insisted that the engine must be able - in limp mode - to only use the LPFP pressure, which is 5 bar, and still drive the vehicle at 170 km/h.


    If correct, do you agree then that considering the ti in the compression phase, we can get it up to 4 ms for 7000 rpm ? Can we use the full compression phase ?

    You would have to calculate it, but yes, there is extra time at mentioned before.
    The injector can inject a lot of fuel into the cylinder. When increasing the injection time, and also when injecting in the compression phase, look out for cylinder wall wetting. This is dangerous. It would wash away the oil on the walls, causing wear. One way to check for wall wetting is to check the engine oil if it has fuel in it. Another way would be to check if the vapor of the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) and see if there's fuel vapor.
    The risk of wall wetting may be reduced by running higher boost, as it affects air flow inside the cylinder.
    Running the HPFP at higher pressure may increase the risk again.

    You said we should tune the TI duration of the ignition pulse. Can we also tune with the MSD via a reflesh when the ignition time starts ?
    There is indeed a calculated ignitition start time in the MSD. It is not a map, but i'm not sure.

    How does the ECU measure a knocking problem ? Does it use voltage ? Does it do it for all 6 cilinders individual ?
    Each piezo injector has a knocking sensor. It measures vibration. By looking at certain frequencies, the knocking signal is sent.

    De community is desperate to lean more about the MSD80. We would love to have information that can help us reflesh the unit to tune to engine for 600 PS. Can you help ? Can you direct us to a colleague (do you have a name ?) This is vital for my own project too !
    I don't know about the MSD80. I'm an injection / fuel system engineer. I will talk to some colleagues and see if i can help you with anything. We have to make sure we're not infringing any copyrights and i think BMW owns the rights to the information on the MSD.


    Can we buy this information ? Who should I talk to to ?
    there may be a legal way to buy this information, i will talk to some colleagues and mail you back.


    All of us want to invite you to join our forum N54tech.com. An engineer like you would be incredible value to the forum, may I mail you an invite to join ? It’s free of course !
    Thank you for the invitation. I will think about it. I have to be careful not to share information that my company doesn't want us to share.

  23. #48
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    Dude! Click here to enlarge This info is really really good...most awesome comment I found is the volume of fuel the injectors are capable of injecting even if the HPFP dies where they're entirely driven by the LPFP as well as the comment on fuel pressure vs. volume of fuel delivered where high fuel pressure at the HPFP didn't really mean more fuel necessarily...

    thank you!

    One question I'd like to ask them is what max EGTs the N54 engine internals are designed to handle...how hot can we go before melting the good stuff inside? I've installed EGT probes on the turbo manifolds and I'll be gathering data with various tunes and it'd be great to know where the limits are to be able to back down...the F10 M5 engineer in one interview was proudly indicating the new M5's engine is built to withstand EGTs of up to 1050C (1922F) but i don't know if that is their running temperature without a tune or a limit on internals
    Click here to enlarge

  24. #49
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    Hi Dzenno, i always thought that the exhaust manifold can indeed get close to the 1150 C, but i'm also sure that if it gets that hot, your oil is overheating too and the engine will have shut off earlier. But i don't mind asking him that questions. I'm not sure if he'll know the answer though ,as he didn't deal with the exhaust or turbo system.

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    Click here to enlarge well done

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