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Thread: External methanol injection failsafe for flash tunes @BMS

              
   
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    External methanol injection failsafe for flash tunes @BMS

    Hey Terry:

    I think with race/meth maps and ATR coming closer and closer to release on Cobb, it's time to start picking your brain for some external failsafe ideas from BMS. I would imagine there would be some interest from the guys running GIAC as well, since many of them have a perfectly good stage 2 race map being unused.

    Here are the current solutions:

    1. Take a common flow sensor from Labonte, SnowPerformance or coolingmist, connect a boost bypass solenoid (http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=33) to the 5V trigger and cut boost if meth flow does not hit target. Will result in underboost/limp if meth fails, but should be effective.

    2. Buy an HFS-3 kit.

    3. Use a JB4 to control boost and monitor methanol flow.

    I know we discussed various possibilities, such as a standalone FSB, an external FSB or rewriting JB4 firmware.

    My possible solutions would be an external FSB box with a dial (similar to the V3 DP Fix) that allows the end user to dial in their meth flow. Maybe a range of 0-100 as if logged with the JB4? I am not sure what an external FSB box would do if meth flow does not hit target, but that's for discussion. I am sure we could all contribute expected meth flow ranges for the known flow sensors if necessary.

    If going with an FSB connected to the DME, I'd want the ability to monitor methanol flow at the very least.

    Care to share what ideas you have at this time?

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    We have a wide range of options for a flash meth safety so I'm open to suggestions.

    The cheapest and easiest to install/use would be a small box that had a FSB integrated in with a JB+, only instead of raising boost like a JB+ typically does it would lower boost and close the throttle if methanol was not flowing properly.

    The most expensive and nicest setup would be basically a nerfed JB4 that ran methanol integration along with in dash gauges, steering wheel controls, etc, as we do now. You could use our FSB or we could package it with a mechanical flow sensor like the Aquamist or Snow one if preferred.

    Maybe there is some in between option. Once I have a better feeling for if/how Cobb plans to integrate a meth failsafe trigger in to their tuning we can come up with additional integration ideas. For example if they can map ignition retard based on intake temperatures and give us a pump gas timing curve when IAT is over say 160 degrees we can design the failsafe to alter IAT if meth stops flowing.

    We also plan to offer a WW kit for use with flash tunes including this failsafe but using our meth hardware won't be a requirement. We'll sell the integration piece ala-cart for those of you who have your own meth kits or wish to use another brand.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 10-19-2011 at 01:32 PM.

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    Thanks for the info. Looks like the only way to monitor actual meth flow on a flash tune without an external gauge is through the ECU box though.

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    Or OBDII port. You could always wire in an LED to turn on when meth is flowing, if you didn't want something to access the CAN bus.

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    Wouldn't wiring in an LED only let you know the pump is on?

    And I don't think a .9V flow output can light an LED of any kind, even if it came from the FSB. What I'm afraid of, simply because I'm lazy and let the meth run out all the damn time, is the possibility of the system not being primed properly when you run dry. 99.9% of the time, when the system is properly primed and the filter is clean, there are no flow issues.

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    Lighting an LED when meth is over a certain value is easy to do, if it technically meets the needs. The FSB is a good approach to methanol safety and using that system coupled with TMAP connectors to manipulate throttle/boost/IAT, and maybe with an extra output for an LED or light, would make for a cheap and easy to implement solution.

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    I like this one a lot:
    the cheapest and easiest to install/use would be a small box that had a FSB integrated in with a JB+, only instead of raising boost like a JB+ typically does it would lower boost and close the throttle if methanol was not flowing properly.
    i have already a jb+ with a wire (remember with GIAC?) so i guess a change of firmware ant its good to go. Open for testing it.
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    Ah, ok you meant have the FSB light the LED, got it.

    I know you never did implement the hazards for meth flow, but should be easy to do for an FSB connected to the DME, right? Figure since you already have hazards for the shift light, you know the CAN command.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I like this one a lot:
    the cheapest and easiest to install/use would be a small box that had a FSB integrated in with a JB+, only instead of raising boost like a JB+ typically does it would lower boost and close the throttle if methanol was not flowing properly.
    i have already a jb+ with a wire (remember with GIAC?) so i guess a change of firmware ant its good to go. Open for testing it.
    Click here to enlarge
    This would be a bit different. For this we would make a special box that had both the FSB and JB+ functionality inside it. We would have to design it. But the method is promising!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
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    Ah, ok you meant have the FSB light the LED, got it.

    I know you never did implement the hazards for meth flow, but should be easy to do for an FSB connected to the DME, right? Figure since you already have hazards for the shift light, you know the CAN command.
    If we go with a system that has CAN access we can do any in dash stuff we want. The problem is hitting those CAN wires is a bit of a headache. They need to go in the DME box, OBDII port, or behind the glove box.

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    I also like the JB+ like idea where it just lowers boost to a configurable value (say 13-14psi) once meth isn't flowing...maybe just like JB+, instead of attenuating the map signal to the DME, amplify it and induce throttle closures Click here to enlarge that'd be too brute force i think, you'll probably have something more elegant

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    Loving the innovation here.
    2008 E92 M3 - 6MT - Jerez Black
    | Evolve | Apex | H&R | Exotics Tuning |

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    Nice, been waiting to see what BMS was going to do with the COBB.

    Thanks T!

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    I'd be in for the JB+ method Click here to enlarge

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    bump!

    Looks like some of us will need solutions sooner rather than later....

    I guess for testing purposes without a failsafe, I'll have to run MS109... considering this thing targets 20 psi peak.

    Maybe I'll be the guinea pig and get the SnowPerformance boost bypass solenoid to test. Ground it to the same point as the injector solenoid, and switch the 0-1.5V flow output wire to the 5V trigger. 5 minute job tops and easy enough to reverse. To prevent WOT onset timing drops, I will also likely have to drop the trigger point of my pressure switch as well.

    I'd rather have an elegant solution from BMS though! In for beta testing Click here to enlarge

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    So... Are they going to do anything? Until we have a clear understanding of what provisions for a failsafe they want to add it's premature to design hardware for them. If they decide to provide no provisions that's fine too. But would want to know that ahead of time... Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
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    So... Are they going to do anything? Until we have a clear understanding of what provisions for a failsafe they want to add it's premature to design hardware for them. If they decide to provide no provisions that's fine too. But would want to know that ahead of time... Click here to enlarge
    Just asked them. In its current state, I don't believe any internal failsafes exist. I'll let you know once I have any info. Look at it this way, GIAC stage 2 race doesn't have any failsafe provisions either!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
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    Just asked them. In its current state, I don't believe any internal failsafes exist. I'll let you know once I have any info. Look at it this way, GIAC stage 2 race doesn't have any failsafe provisions either!
    yeah but the GIAC race just adds some more timing on top of the usual stage 2 boost. The Cobb runs way higher than that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
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    bump!

    Looks like some of us will need solutions sooner rather than later....

    I guess for testing purposes without a failsafe, I'll have to run MS109... considering this thing targets 20 psi peak.

    Maybe I'll be the guinea pig and get the SnowPerformance boost bypass solenoid to test. Ground it to the same point as the injector solenoid, and switch the 0-1.5V flow output wire to the 5V trigger. 5 minute job tops and easy enough to reverse. To prevent WOT onset timing drops, I will also likely have to drop the trigger point of my pressure switch as well.

    I'd rather have an elegant solution from BMS though! In for beta testing Click here to enlarge
    I think the boost bypass solenoid would work for sure and it would work as advertised if the flow is not flowing at a certain ml/min for a duration thats set on the safeinjection...I dont see why it would not be effective. Looking forward to your guinea pig testing as you did with the safeinjection to Procede! I might think about going Cobb myself really soon..

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    hey terry, can you do something that would use the cmgs guage in the glove compartment,and pin into the ecu connector thu the firewall much like the usb wire? that way the guage requirement is handled and the meth control

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    Bypass solenoid will work but I'd much prefer just lowering wgdc by a factor of some sort than just bypass it..

    If jb4 were my product I'd try to build a standalone for it but also have it compatible so it could hook in with the jb4 a la fsb or speed delimiter...I like my jb4 features and am planning to keep it in there for a while actually for gauges, shift light, nos integration, etc just add it into the jb4 so it has a failsafe map just for this and has gauges and everything else in place but in addition has the ability to drop wgdc based on meth flow

    Say its a new jb4 user adjustable calledd flash meth safety map: value is a map to drop to in case of no meth flow...default is zero or 4 (passthrough, as in disabled jb4 flash meth safety)
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 10-28-2011 at 08:33 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
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    yeah but the GIAC race just adds some more timing on top of the usual stage 2 boost. The Cobb runs way higher than that.
    I believe Cobb takes the opposite approach, keep the timing curve the same as stage 2 but increase boost.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Cn555ic Click here to enlarge
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    I think the boost bypass solenoid would work for sure and it would work as advertised if the flow is not flowing at a certain ml/min for a duration thats set on the safeinjection...I dont see why it would not be effective. Looking forward to your guinea pig testing as you did with the safeinjection to Procede! I might think about going Cobb myself really soon..
    Two things concern me with this setup, the max flow allowable on the trigger point is 600ml/min and the fact it will induce a limp mode instead of reducing boost. Won't be anywhere as elegant as progressive meth on the piggybacks for sure.

    The challenge is knowing it's supposed to work as intended. In my experience it's almost never a reduced flow condition, it's a no flow condition.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I am running the snow safeinjection box with the fsb. Works perfectly.

    I have installed the safeinjection box on lots of cars with flashed tunes. Typically we remove the codes that are triggered during a boost cut when the safety is triggered. Cobb tunes usually allow for code suppression with little effort..I will say I have not seen the custom tuning interface for the BMW flashes yet so I'm not sure.

    Depending on the application we have used the solenoid bypass to bleed or block, just a simple relay also works to cut boost control on the stock solenoid in the N54 case you could go both ways I think...I wouldn't be worried about a limp mode as much if all other methods fail. I would rather have a temporary issue then a broken ring landing or worse in the case of a meth flow issue.

    I am open to doing testing at the shop on the shop 335xi if anyone wants us to try something.
    Last edited by turbosetch; 10-28-2011 at 06:50 PM.

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    How's this for a simple inexpensive solution:

    We design a JB+ style circuit that connects to the TMAP sensor. It will have some DIP switches inside as well as a trim pot to select different software options.

    Option 1: Take in a flow sensor signal (like the Snow, or FSB if using a BMS kit) and if boost > X, meth < Y, for the duration of Z milliseconds then the output boost becomes 3psi more than the input boost causing instant throttle closure and timing reduction. Tripping the failsafe would be not be super smooth but it would save your engine and unlike a bypass solenoid system is likely to actually work as intended.

    Option 2: Take in a flow sensor signal and progressively output a decreasing boost signal (to cause the DME to raise actual boost) proportional to methanol flow. This mode would be more useful when ATR comes out as you could design you own medium boost high advance map and then use the JB+ to add say 3psi on top of that across the board.

    Option 3: Same as option 1 only instead of altering boost IAT is increased to 170 degrees. For this to work the flash tuning would need to be programmed to run a very low advance curve when IAT got to 170 degrees. Like say 2 degrees ramping up to 8 degrees at redline.

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