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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    For BMW modification, it seems the most popular setups are always centrifugal superchargers like a Vortech.

    Why don't we see more twin screws or positive displacement blowers? I know they are more expensive but is it the tuning? Honestly, with instant boost they are way more fun and give people what they really are looking for, torque.
    You are correct, it is more difficult to dial in a PD blower than a centrifugal. They make isntant boost which makes part throttle tuning significantly tougher to do. Also they are harder on driveline components due to higher peak and average torque. Finally they are less forgiving on higher static compression engines like the BMW M N/A jewels, nor do they like to rev as much as cent's do--they just make too much heat at high rpm.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    You are correct, it is more difficult to dial in a PD blower than a centrifugal. They make isntant boost which makes part throttle tuning significantly tougher to do. Also they are harder on driveline components due to higher peak and average torque. Finally they are less forgiving on higher static compression engines like the BMW M N/A jewels, nor do they like to rev as much as cent's do--they just make too much heat at high rpm.
    Thank you for offering your perspective.

    Do you prefer a centrifugal setup?
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  3. #28
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    Personally I'd rather see a single/twin conventional mount turbo setup for any FI application, however supercharger selection would ultimately depend on the specific application in question. For an SUV (heavy needs off line torque) I'd go TS/PD, for something that revs to the moon, you can't beat a centrifugal. Now we just need someone to fit a YSI on a S65 LOL!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Personally I'd rather see a single/twin conventional mount turbo setup for any FI application, however supercharger selection would ultimately depend on the specific application in question. For an SUV (heavy needs off line torque) I'd go TS/PD, for something that revs to the moon, you can't beat a centrifugal. Now we just need someone to fit a YSI on a S65 LOL!
    YSI on S65 has been done... more than once Click here to enlarge

    I will most likely be the third as soon as Gintani and I figure out how many kidneys I need to sell.
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  5. #30
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    What's ysi?
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sammyrusso Click here to enlarge
    What's ysi?
    A vortech blower that is larger than the t-trim.
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  7. #32
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    Got it ...didn't realize that's what Josh and Alex are using
    Current:
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    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A vortech blower that is larger than the t-trim.
    I think someone should put a procharger on their ///M3.
    http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by switlikbob Click here to enlarge
    I think someone should put a procharger on their ///M3.
    http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml
    Similar to the vortechs, some design differences, but I don't see an advantage to procharger. One can get good results with either.
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Similar to the vortechs, some design differences, but I don't see an advantage to procharger. One can get good results with either.
    You can rev the $#@! out of them...I think they are good to over 100,000rpm, unlike the vortechs. More boost, more power.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by switlikbob Click here to enlarge
    You can rev the $#@! out of them...I think they are good to over 100,000rpm, unlike the vortechs. More boost, more power.
    Both rev really high as and as high as anyone would need.

    Prochargers highest RPM model hits 74,000 and capable of 38 psi but with smaller inlets and outlets than some of the bigger vortech units. Really, either of them has units which will support any BMW application.
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  12. #37
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    I guess you are right...but I think the prochargers can put out more psi. Not sure if it could be fitted to a BMW application properly.
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by switlikbob Click here to enlarge
    I guess you are right...but I think the prochargers can put out more psi. Not sure if it could be fitted to a BMW application properly.
    With both doing 30+ psi I don't think we are going to see that kind of boost from an SC on a BMW any time soon.
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  14. #39
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    Yeah, that is a bit much. Again, it's a game of the right fit for the application. Plus, the vortech's that make that kind of boost are very large...they would take up half of the engine bay...not sure of the sizing on the prochargers.
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by switlikbob Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, that is a bit much. Again, it's a game of the right fit for the application. Plus, the vortech's that make that kind of boost are very large...they would take up half of the engine bay...not sure of the sizing on the prochargers.
    Well, here is the spec chart of both Click here to enlarge

    Procharger: http://www.procharger.com/models.shtml

    Vortech: http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/scspecsheet.php
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  16. #41
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    Gentlemen, I have been thinking about this more in depth and have done some research on the topic. Moved this to S65 since it primarily deals with that motor.

    The main issue is that a twin screw needs to pull through the throttle body. That means, they are mounted AFTER the throttle body, not before. So it can't be setup like a Centrifugal that is fed into an intake plenum and into the throttle bodies.

    The reason for this is that a positive displacement blower is always making boost. This would create an issue with the throttle bodies when feeding the air in, pushing on them when they shouldn't be. That is why it is mounted after.

    Well, on the S65, since it has independent throttle bodies right on top of the motor how do you mount a twin screw after the throttle bodies? I don't know, does not seem that you can. A solution might be to convert it to single throttle body but then that creates a whole host of issues with programming.

    Basically guys, a centrifugal is the setup that makes the most sense. It isn't that bad as centri's are fantastic up top, what I hated is the low rpm aspects of them which make driving around town just plain suck along with sloppy throttle response. It is like having extreme turbo lag without the turbo punch. Once you get to the higher rpm range though, the centri is a beautiful match for the S65 powerband and it really moves. I spend a lot of time wondering if a twin screw M3 would be faster than a centri M3.

    I have been toying with a lot of different ideas while I sit around waiting and it seems I am going to stick with the centri as any other option will complicate matters to the point I will be without my car forever.
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  17. #42
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    Thought I would also add this, I am going to get a twin screw car at some point. I don't see anything beating the fun factor of having instant boost all the time, pushing you into your seat at any RPM range.

    I can see the appeal of a GT500.
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    i have the v3si centri on my s54, this blower can make 775bhp @ 23psi according to vortech, i love my centri setup for its high revving nature, infact adding a centri to my s54 has in essense made me feel like i have a v8 in my car, its just moved the power curve higher, lovely linear power, just when my stock s54 felt asmatic my ess z4m is just hitting its stride, i have to say i do love the sound of the TS chargers, i would love to drive an s54 with a ts to see if it would be the best of both, mega low down torque matched with top hammer like pull, one thing is to note, TS chargers that are spun at high revs make some serious heat.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by beedub Click here to enlarge
    infact adding a centri to my s54 has in essense made me feel like i have a v8 in my car, its just moved the power curve higher
    See that's the thing, a V8 would give you more torque lower.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by beedub Click here to enlarge
    have to say i do love the sound of the TS chargers, i would love to drive an s54 with a ts to see if it would be the best of both, mega low down torque matched with top hammer like pull, one thing is to note, TS chargers that are spun at high revs make some serious heat.
    I like the sound of the twin screw as well. I feel like the twin screw gives the M motors exactly what they lack, power down low. They still give a top end benefit as they hold boost from the bottom to end. You raise a good point about the heat, heat soak is a huge issue with positive displacement blowers.
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  20. #45
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Another few things to think about too is that TS/PDs are much harder on engine internals than the Centri's....as full boost hits at very low revs and very quickly. So in the end...you'd maybe have to run a TS/PD setup at slightly lower boost pressure vs a Centri. You'd surely get much more power during the first 2/3rds of the Tach but then up top there would be a measurable sacrifice. Additionally, having all this low end torque sounds great...but putting it down would be a PITA. Basically you'd have a ton of power and a hard time getting to use it....then when traction was finally not an issue, you'd be giving up some top end. Granted, for highway passing in higher gears this would be fun....downshifting would be entirely unecessary.

    The two Centri M3s I've driven, really didn't feel like they NEEDED any more torque. As it was...traction in 1,2, and almost always 3rd was limited. Finally, I personally feel that a Centri is a better match "character" wise to the M3....its a better match to the way the car makes power naturally...just amplifying it greatly. TS/PDs on say GT500s, Mustangs etc are sick....those engines are naturally strong low-mid range....totally different feel...not better or worse. Just different.

    Ultimately, if it was my money and I were to invest in some sort of exotic on-off setup. I'd go with a Turbo setup and never look back.....that to me is always the way to go if money is not an object....and you can tune the power band on a turbo with great amount of flexibility....you can make it do almost anything you want.

    Cheers.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    Another few things to think about too is that TS/PDs are much harder on engine internals than the Centri's....as full boost hits at very low revs and very quickly. So in the end...you'd maybe have to run a TS/PD setup at slightly lower boost pressure vs a Centri.
    This would be a on a built motor application so no consequence. With factory internals, I certainly agree with you.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    You'd surely get much more power during the first 2/3rds of the Tach but then up top there would be a measurable sacrifice.
    I don't know, this is usually the argument used but I believe twin screw appear to drop off more up top due to the fact their curve is so fat to begin with. Modern twin screw have the same efficiency ratings as the top centri's so why would there be a huge hit if boost is maintained?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    The two Centri M3s I've driven, really didn't feel like they NEEDED any more torque
    I hated how mine felt down low, just doesn't have that liveliness the car does when NA.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    Finally, I personally feel that a Centri is a better match "character" wise to the M3....its a better match to the way the car makes power naturally...just amplifying it greatly.
    Yes, this is quite correct and how I feel as well, matches the high revving nature.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    I'd go with a Turbo setup and never look back.....that to me is always the way to go if money is not an object....and you can tune the power band on a turbo with great amount of flexibility....you can make it do almost anything you want.
    I would too, but a turbo on this motor is a pipe dream right now.
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  22. #47
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    Sticky,

    The top 1/3rd of the Tach power sacrifice I was refering to when comparing the TS/PD to Centri was under the assumption of a stock internal motor....given the added low end high load stress on the internals.

    So Stock Internals....lets for arguments say that a Centri with Meth can run 9.5psi....the TS/PD may get away with 7psi....cause it'll hit that figure at very low rpm. Under those circumstances is when I was alluding to the Centri haveing a top 1/3rd tach advantage as the thermal efficiency is slightly better and that due to lower stress, also allows higher peak boost; assuming above scenario.

    Know whatta mean, jelly bean? LOL :-)

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    Sticky,

    The top 1/3rd of the Tach power sacrifice I was refering to when comparing the TS/PD to Centri was under the assumption of a stock internal motor....given the added low end high load stress on the internals.
    I understand, but that is also the point, if we are talking built motors the Twin Screw won't have to have a boost penalty to protect the stock rods from that large hit up front.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BASELINE Click here to enlarge
    So Stock Internals....lets for arguments say that a Centri with Meth can run 9.5psi....the TS/PD may get away with 7psi....cause it'll hit that figure at very low rpm. Under those circumstances is when I was alluding to the Centri haveing a top 1/3rd tach advantage as the thermal efficiency is slightly better and that due to lower stress, also allows higher peak boost; assuming above scenario.

    Know whatta mean, jelly bean? LOL :-)
    Yes, I gotcha. Often we see people saying twin screws suffer a top end penalty and in your scenario they would due to having to run lower boost comparatively on stock internals. On built internals, essentially the question of going for max power, it would be interesting to see the top end comparison vs. a centri on an application like an S65.

    The reason I am operating under the built motor assumption is because... well, I will be running a built motor so part of this is asking for myself.
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  24. #49
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    Any updates on your build Sticky??

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Any updates on your build Sticky??
    Not since what I posted in the DCT thread, just brainstorming and exploring all options Click here to enlarge I think I figured some things out though.
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