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  1. #26
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    Here is a log of Cobb Stage 2 on meth. Notice how timing fluctuates greatly between the cylinders on the 3-4 shift, I suspect this is what is happening on the piggybacks.

    Click here to enlarge

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    My next car is going to be carbuerated.
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    ^lol i don't blame ya!
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    2007 335i Coupe
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    Here is a log of Cobb Stage 2 on meth. Notice how timing fluctuates greatly between the cylinders on the 3-4 shift, I suspect this is what is happening on the piggybacks.
    Myst, this is surprising and looks like Cobb may not eliminate the flatlining at higher boost/loads.

    Yes, you do have to tune with a piggy, especially with Meth... but you really have to tune with any power increase per the car and conditions. Piggies, at this time, give more flexibility. I log a lot and every log is spot on with what I expect. I run a consistent 410hp on meth and 360ish off with stock second cats and stock intake in AZ.

    The timing is NOT lean post shift, but stockish curve. This will give complete burn with DI, but does hinder the extra cooling, and reduced burn rate... and you can tune for this. And it's really not a factor in my opinion.

    For timing what's the difference between a setpoint of 5 or 10-5... its the same, and DME will correct accordingly if needed. the advantage is more flexibility with properly controled CPS.

    Anyway, few are neutral here and primarily attack Shiv... true open discussion is only a dream. I'm fairly neutral and my bias is piggy at this time... partly because i own one, but much due to the options, power it provides... I plan to stay open to all options... hopefully.

  5. #30
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    Josh, I was in the same boat and if you take the time you'll find many posts where I expressed the same opinions in an unbiased way...now that I chose to run another tune I'm all of a sudden a procede hater lol it really doesn't matter to me, I know and am happy for the switch as I had my own good reasons to do that...you'll also notice I personally never attack anyone where it was uncalled for...when I see BS I'll always call it out that's all but now that I run a different tune I'm an "attacker"...I really do wonder what would've happened had I continued running the procede but gave the same opinions...in any case just keep in mind I don't start $#@! ever, never will, but I won't just sit silent if I know for fact that certain claims are just total BS...

    To you specifically you're saying post shift AFR isn't lean it's just stockish, ok that's fine! However a tune should be able to allow for adjustment correct? Try to adjust it richer without a wild up/down swing and report back with your findings...no shiv here, just you your car and your end user settings..let's keep it civil
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  6. #31
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    The issue with the post shift AFRs basically has to do with the open loop tables. Flash tunes do have an advantage in being able to alter them. On the piggyback side, we can only alter them indirectly with fuel pressure, so its a little more limiting. D do you have AFR traces from the dyno on your last round of testing?

  7. #32
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    Terry, I was just going to post and ask for your input, but looks like I maybe incorrect in my understanding. I thought the stockish curve is due primarily to delay in inducing bias and DME reacting. But if it’s open loop / pressure mapping then there’s options to reduce it?

    The posted logs don’t look great in IAT (maybe meth’s not working 100%) and everyone needs to check their fuel trims. One point that needs to be understood is that a piggy is designed to run at peaks of 11psi or 20psi, where a flash runs at X peak load. So there will be a much great swing in tuning parameters for the piggy and these need to be confirmed, maybe adjusted.

    Hey Dz, I don’t think you’re a hater and I do think you’re fairly neutral, but you have been exaggerating a little lately. And I understand to a point.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I was just going to post and ask for your input, but looks like I maybe incorrect in my understanding. I thought the stockish curve is due primarily to delay in inducing bias and DME reacting. But if it’s open loop / pressure mapping then there’s options to reduce it?

    The posted logs don’t look great in IAT (maybe meth’s not working 100%) and everyone needs to check their fuel trims. One point that needs to be understood is that a piggy is designed to run at peaks of 11psi or 20psi, where a flash runs at X peak load. So there will be a much great swing in tuning parameters for the piggy and these need to be confirmed, maybe adjusted.

    Hey Dz, I don’t think you’re a hater and I do think you’re fairly neutral, but you have been exaggerating a little lately. And I understand to a point.
    Regarding the lean spikes post shift, especially with manuals, my theory is the open loop fueling tables are the major cause. Same goes for the ability to hit richer than say 13:1 air/fuel ratios at low RPM. The open loop tables establish a base fuel trim and the widebands then work from that base +-33%. The O2 biasing works well but has a small delay and can only work within those allowable fuel trims. On top of that we have the fuel pressure which can be tricked to offset more fuel but our flexibility for this at lower RPM is much less than at higher RPM due to the OEM fuel curve mapping already in place. Long story short, the flash tunes have the upper hand in terms of overall fuel control. But as I've said many times the piggybacks can control fuel good enough and can match the torque with less boost and more advance. Which is really a more efficient way to tune anyway. Plus if you introduce methanol to the equation you in essence can bypass the fuel trim problem to an extent.

    For large turbo owners who expect huge amounts of boost down low I do see the appeal to the flash fuel curves though.

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    There is a very good reason why GIAC took so long to get their Stage 2 released. Cobb Stage 2 Beta maps are not near perfect. My guess is that we won't see "properly" tuned Stage 2 car out of Cobb till next year.

    Take a look at my most recent Stage2+FMIC Aggressive log:
    Click here to enlarge

    Focus on actual load vs requested load, boost and also throttle plate position vs actual pedal position.

    From the looks of it, they have a lot to do before they get rid of all those choppy lines and disparities.
    From all the things I've lost,
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  10. #35
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    I hate E90post, and the admins.
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  11. #36
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    [COLOR=[URL=http://www.bimmerboost.com/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=222222%5D%5BQ UOTE%3Dthemyst]#222222]
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst[/URL
    203655]Happens on both the JB4 and Procede, the JB tends to recover timing after flatlining going into 4th, but the Procede simply flatlines. It's fuel related.

    Here's a JB4 datalog... the issue is present but less severe.

    Attachment 10692
    [/COLOR]
    Thats my log. Are you just talking about the timing?
    Click here to enlarge


  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    There is a very good reason why GIAC took so long to get their Stage 2 released. Cobb Stage 2 Beta maps are not near perfect. My guess is that we won't see "properly" tuned Stage 2 car out of Cobb till next year.

    Focus on actual load vs requested load, boost and also throttle plate position vs actual pedal position.

    From the looks of it, they have a lot to do before they get rid of all those choppy lines and disparities.
    I've driven and logged both and I think the Cobb tuning is a lot better than the GIAC tuning. But Cobb does have various boost issues to resolve. The boost control and throttle mapping are areas where the piggybacks greatly excel in my opinion.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    [COLOR=[URL=http://www.bimmerboost.com/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=222222][QUOTE%3Dthemyst]#222222][/COLOR]
    Thats my log. Are you just talking about the timing?
    Um, that's my log, check the timestamp on my photobucket if you don't believe me Click here to enlarge

  14. #39
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    Haha oops. I have a log that looks almost identical to that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    I hate E90post, and the admins.
    Only way to fight back is by helping shove this place down their throats.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Only way to fight back is by helping shove this place down their throats.
    Sorry, Im permabanned, I cant. lol
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, Im permabanned, I cant. lol
    Just tell your friends and it's ok. They have permabanned enough people to allow another forum to form just from those people alone.

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    No, I fully intend on using a proxy to create new accounts Click here to enlarge. But yes, people need to switch over here since the E90 admins suck.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    No, I fully intend on using a proxy to create new accounts Click here to enlarge. But yes, people need to switch over here since the E90 admins suck.
    I just would prefer to have the good people from there... which we basically already do. I hope the rest of the crap stays.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I just would prefer to have the good people from there... which we basically already do. I hope the rest of the crap stays.
    I completely agree. Sorry for the OT rant. Lets get back on topic. Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    I completely agree. Sorry for the OT rant. Lets get back on topic. Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, this crap is annoying... create a new "why BB is so great" thread. I will not participate in that one. Freedom is great, but if this site reached E90 size then it couldn't stay the way it is. Damn I just fell into the derailer / instigator category.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Myst, this is surprising and looks like Cobb may not eliminate the flatlining at higher boost/loads.

    Yes, you do have to tune with a piggy, especially with Meth... but you really have to tune with any power increase per the car and conditions. Piggies, at this time, give more flexibility. I log a lot and every log is spot on with what I expect. I run a consistent 410hp on meth and 360ish off with stock second cats and stock intake in AZ.

    The timing is NOT lean post shift, but stockish curve. This will give complete burn with DI, but does hinder the extra cooling, and reduced burn rate... and you can tune for this. And it's really not a factor in my opinion.

    For timing what's the difference between a setpoint of 5 or 10-5... its the same, and DME will correct accordingly if needed. the advantage is more flexibility with properly controled CPS.

    Anyway, few are neutral here and primarily attack Shiv... true open discussion is only a dream. I'm fairly neutral and my bias is piggy at this time... partly because i own one, but much due to the options, power it provides... I plan to stay open to all options... hopefully.
    This has nothing to do with hating on the Procede, but merely pointing out reasons and solutions as to why TIMING flatlines post-shift on the latest DME software, which affects JB4 users as well. This impacts users off methanol as well if you did more research on the topic. The good news is I believe Cobb knows why and how to correct the timing issues, but I haven't really pursued it any further as multiple users have confirmed, meth is worthless on stage 2+.

    My beef with Shiv is the fact he speaks as if he has a solution when he really doesn't, and when he gets questioned, deflects and blames hardware. In his world, his tune is perfect and if something doesn't seem right, the car is to blame. Simply stating the truth and setting correct expectations would have less people questioning or attacking his statements.

    If he would have simply said:
    "At this time, we are investigating the possible cause of this known issue, we will attempt to solve the problem. It is possible this may not be resolvable due to the limitations of our tune".

    Instead of:
    "You are running too much boost on an inferior meth kit that is why you are flatlining timing".

    Do you see the problem with this? Plenty of us running an "inferior" meth kit without issue for years. All of a sudden it's the cause of timing issues induced by the DME update?

    How about speaking for the numerous people who tore their cars apart chasing plugs, coils and injectors for a misfire issue that was tune related? How about dzenno tearing his car apart chasing ghosts after Shiv told him the OCC is causing misfires?

    Sorry for the OT. This isn't a bash on the Procede, but more the tuner.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    This has nothing to do with hating on the Procede, but merely pointing out reasons and solutions as to why TIMING flatlines post-shift on the latest DME software, which affects JB4 users as well. This impacts users off methanol as well if you did more research on the topic. The good news is I believe Cobb knows why and how to correct the timing issues, but I haven't really pursued it any further as multiple users have confirmed, meth is worthless on stage 2+.

    My beef with Shiv is the fact he speaks as if he has a solution when he really doesn't, and when he gets questioned, deflects and blames hardware. In his world, his tune is perfect and if something doesn't seem right, the car is to blame. Simply stating the truth and setting correct expectations would have less people questioning or attacking his statements.

    If he would have simply said:
    "At this time, we are investigating the possible cause of this known issue, we will attempt to solve the problem. It is possible this may not be resolvable due to the limitations of our tune".

    Instead of:
    "You are running too much boost on an inferior meth kit that is why you are flatlining timing".

    Do you see the problem with this? Plenty of us running an "inferior" meth kit without issue for years. All of a sudden it's the cause of timing issues induced by the DME update?

    How about speaking for the numerous people who tore their cars apart chasing plugs, coils and injectors for a misfire issue that was tune related? How about dzenno tearing his car apart chasing ghosts after Shiv told him the OCC is causing misfires?

    Sorry for the OT. This isn't a bash on the Procede, but more the tuner.

    This. Repped for truth.

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I run a consistent 410hp on meth and 360ish off with stock second cats and stock intake in AZ.
    410whp with stock intake? Isn't it a limitation after 375whp?

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    410whp with stock intake? Isn't it a limitation after 375whp?
    Maybe he has a Mr.5 airbox or a panel filter?

    I wouldn't be one bit surprised if he peaks over 410whp with the aggressive "calibrations" Shiv is beta testing. That thing peaks 20 psi post-shift briefly right in the meat of the powerband sometimes. Yet another beef I have with the Procede, post-shift it overshoots target on occasion; not sure if this is intentional or unwanted.

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