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    4 out of 4 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    New Tune, Same Ole

    Well one of Shiv's user just posted logs of the aggressive maps using the pwm meth kit and the new R2.5 procede.
    The logs are now gone due to shiv making e90post delete them but lets review these since I saved them knowing damn well shiv would never let those out to the public.

    Looks the the same $#@! af ratio post shift, flat out dangerous.
    Tune still bogs on manual cars.
    Timing post shift even on meth takes a DUMP.
    Timing is 3-4 degrees with boost over 18psi. This is exactly what shiv bashes cobb for. Enjoy the logs, cause shiv would never let anyone see these.
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Absolutly nothing has changed with the procede....except for the price tag.

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    wholly crap! Is this for real? YIKES!
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    To be fair, it's not Shiv's fault timing takes a dump going into 4th gear. It's the DME targeting that curve post-shift. The point here is though, the Procede's timing "control" is not control at all. It can only add or subtract from what the DME targets.

    That log is also proof positive that the Procede (even with the larger fuel resistor) can't touch the fuel control offered by flash tunes.

    logs of single-gear pulls on a Dynojet are cute, I can show Procede logs of my 135i on a Dynojet at 18.5 psi pushing 424whp as it looks picture perfect, but real-world logs such as these are what separates a flash tune from the Procede.

    Click here to enlarge

    Here's a datalog of my car flatlining timing going into 4th as well. Shiv told me it was my crappy meth kit that is causing it. Well, his $1100 dollar meth kit is doing the same damn thing now, isn't it? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    To be fair, it's not Shiv's fault timing takes a dump going into 4th gear. It's the DME targeting that curve post-shift. The point here is though, the Procede's timing "control" is not control at all. It can only add or subtract from what the DME targets.

    That log is also proof positive that the Procede (even with the larger fuel resistor) can't touch the fuel control offered by flash tunes.

    logs of single-gear pulls on a Dynojet are cute, I can show Procede logs of my 135i on a Dynojet at 18.5 psi pushing 424whp as it looks picture perfect, but real-world logs such as these are what separates a flash tune from the Procede.

    Click here to enlarge

    Here's a datalog of my car flatlining timing going into 4th as well. Shiv told me it was my crappy meth kit that is causing it. Well, his $1100 dollar meth kit is doing the same damn thing now, isn't it? Click here to enlarge
    well put...

    I won't chime in outta respect for sticky as we offer a simular product and only sponsor the benz side of the site. But your assumptions are on the mark.
    Eurocharged Performance
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    To be fair, it's not Shiv's fault timing takes a dump going into 4th gear. It's the DME targeting that curve post-shift. The point here is though, the Procede's timing "control" is not control at all. It can only add or subtract from what the DME targets.

    That log is also proof positive that the Procede (even with the larger fuel resistor) can't touch the fuel control offered by flash tunes.

    logs of single-gear pulls on a Dynojet are cute, I can show Procede logs of my 135i on a Dynojet at 18.5 psi pushing 424whp as it looks picture perfect, but real-world logs such as these are what separates a flash tune from the Procede.

    Click here to enlarge

    Here's a datalog of my car flatlining timing going into 4th as well. Shiv told me it was my crappy meth kit that is causing it. Well, his $1100 dollar meth kit is doing the same damn thing now, isn't it? Click here to enlarge
    Damn that sucks. Have you had this problem with all piggy backs or just the Procede?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3 Click here to enlarge
    Keep on jealousing.

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    eeek
    JB4LIFE

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dOpEdUpM3 Click here to enlarge
    Damn that sucks. Have you had this problem with all piggy backs or just the Procede?
    Happens on both the JB4 and Procede, the JB tends to recover timing after flatlining going into 4th, but the Procede simply flatlines. It's fuel related.

    Here's a JB4 datalog... the issue is present but less severe.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Curious what you guys find on the 4th gear timing dump issue. I've been forced to also consider it's likely fuel or EGT related as no amount of CPS offset or octane took care of it. On the other hand, hotrod did a series of tests and his runs with timing dumping negative post shift vs. holding 8-10 degrees resulted in only 1/2mph less trap speed in the 1/4. Barely noticeable.

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    It's POSSIBLY both fuel and EGT related. Log DME Fuel Mode on your AP and tell me what you see. Should be on mode 2 at pretty much all times under WOT or heavy throttle. If it switches for any reason, timing may be impacted.

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    The way it's setup now I can't log with the AP while the JB4 is enabled. But one of my to-do items is to monitor the DME EGT parameter which we're already using for the JB4 PID system to see if there is any correlation.

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    Yeah I think you said something about moving the JB4 CAN access to another node (?) so that it and the Cobb AP play nice?

    I flatlined timing on meth on cylinder 1 going into 4th gear, with all different curves on the other 5 cylinders with no knock retard with Cobb stage 2, reported to Cobb who suggested I log the DME Fuel Mode parameter.

    The thing is, I don't think timing is "flatlining" globally per se on either piggyback, the problem is you can't log all six cylinders on them so the only feedback you have is off that single cylinder.

    The challenge is preventing whatever is causing the DME to cut timing to stop doing it, in both the Procede and JB4. Click here to enlarge

    BTW, a quarter mile run going into 4th lasts from say 5400 RPM to maybe 6000-6200 RPM in 4th gear, depending on where he traps, so any power loss with the reduced timing won't be majorly impacting.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jake@Eurocharged.com Click here to enlarge
    well put...

    I won't chime in outta respect for sticky as we offer a simular product and only sponsor the benz side of the site. But your assumptions are on the mark.
    Thank you for respecting the vendor guidelines but I am more than happy to bend them in this instance due to the tremendous and positive support you guys have continually offered. Honestly, you never give me any headaches and always maintain your cool so please, go ahead and post your offering in this thread.

    I also have no problem with a little bit of marketing for our vendors at Shiv's expense.

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    As long as this forum is providing the content others hide for the enthusiast we are doing our job. They can no longer get away with the censorship to the degree they once could and that is one of the main reasons we are here. So in an odd way that doesn't focus on the technical aspect of the topic, I'm happy to see this thread.

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    Ah shiv mentioned me on e90. Keep giving me infractions for things i didnt even do and I will make it my goal to catch you in bull$#@! lies.....which should be fairly easy on a daily basis.

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    The problem with piggybacks is consistency. Shiv may get one running right and can post logs but then the next person's car will show these kind of logs. The one running correctly won't do it every time and in every case there's all kinds of fiddling and logging to get things right or at least close to it. Flashes have far less issues and usually hardware related.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    The problem with piggybacks is consistency. Shiv may get one running right and can post logs but then the next person's car will show these kind of logs. The one running correctly won't do it every time and in every case there's all kinds of fiddling and logging to get things right or at least close to it. Flashes have far less issues and usually hardware related.
    Pretty much spot on

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Ah shiv mentioned me on e90. Keep giving me infractions for things i didnt even do and I will make it my goal to catch you in bull$#@! lies.....which should be fairly easy on a daily basis.
    Yeah, i'm watching this BS overthere. He acts like a baby, a drunk one.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I also have no problem with a little bit of marketing for our vendors at Shiv's expense.
    Click here to enlarge

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    I laughed at this post from him:

    Things would be different if it werent for people like themyst. In case you were wondering, he took screen captures of your logs and posted them on the other forum for "unbiased" discussion on Sticky's forum.
    But just to understand some more. Are these happening with some of the procede users, or is it just because the guy was testing a beta map without bogfix?
    2010 335i Coupe Le Mans Blue
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    His days are numbered...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Scourge82 Click here to enlarge
    I laughed at this post from him:



    But just to understand some more. Are these happening with some of the procede users, or is it just because the guy was testing a beta map without bogfix?
    The bogging is possible because the guy ran a 6AT map on his manual, but the other issues he has such as crappy fueling and timing flatline have been present for god knows how long.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    The problem with piggybacks is consistency. Shiv may get one running right and can post logs but then the next person's car will show these kind of logs. The one running correctly won't do it every time and in every case there's all kinds of fiddling and logging to get things right or at least close to it. Flashes have far less issues and usually hardware related.
    The problem is 99% of the time, fixing those issues is like trying to catch a butterfly blindfolded.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    To be fair, it's not Shiv's fault timing takes a dump going into 4th gear. It's the DME targeting that curve post-shift. The point here is though, the Procede's timing "control" is not control at all. It can only add or subtract from what the DME targets.

    That log is also proof positive that the Procede (even with the larger fuel resistor) can't touch the fuel control offered by flash tunes.

    logs of single-gear pulls on a Dynojet are cute, I can show Procede logs of my 135i on a Dynojet at 18.5 psi pushing 424whp as it looks picture perfect, but real-world logs such as these are what separates a flash tune from the Procede.

    Here's a datalog of my car flatlining timing going into 4th as well. Shiv told me it was my crappy meth kit that is causing it. Well, his $1100 dollar meth kit is doing the same damn thing now, isn't it?
    You touched on a very good point here. There is quite a difference in flash tune vs piggy back. We (assuming most other tuners have full DME access) can make changes to the dme to prevent things happening. Some of the piggys just can't control full parameters like flashes can (ie fuel). One thing to note, meth is very difficult to tune for on a mass scale. Meaning, sure we can tune your car for meth and your mods, but I am not going to use that tune on another car with the same mods without a heck of a lot of datalogging and/or possible tweeks.

    Your datalogs are not uncommon for the particular set of mods. I have seen the same before, and it's great that you are taking a proactive stance in getting things corrected. There are way too many people that don't log and just run full out.

    I also wanted to comment on your point about dyno vs street. If your tuner offers street tuning take it. That is by far the best way to make sure the car is performing perfectly. The dyno (load bearing only) is a great tool for tuning don't get me wrong, it just lacks the environmental conditions that could and do cause issues with the cars and their performance (temp/air etc)

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The thing is, I don't think timing is "flatlining" globally per se on either piggyback, the problem is you can't log all six cylinders on them so the only feedback you have is off that single cylinder.

    The challenge is preventing whatever is causing the DME to cut timing to stop doing it, in both the Procede and JB4.
    Ding, great point and right on the mark! I personally think that the evolution of the JB has caused it to try and do more than the original design. When it first came out it was a great product, but now it seems like you are trying to control too many things that the ecu should be responsible for on these higher end builds. Just my 2 cents....

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    The problem with piggybacks is consistency. Shiv may get one running right and can post logs but then the next person's car will show these kind of logs. The one running correctly won't do it every time and in every case there's all kinds of fiddling and logging to get things right or at least close to it. Flashes have far less issues and usually hardware related.
    great point!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    The problem is 99% of the time, fixing those issues is like trying to catch a butterfly blindfolded.
    they can be. The other problem with things like this is when things go wrong. DME tries to do one thing and some of the other add ons do another.
    Last edited by Jake@Eurocharged.com; 10-12-2011 at 10:49 AM. Reason: I can't spell
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    Sales@eurocharged.com

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  23. #23
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Well one of Shiv's user just posted logs of the aggressive maps using the pwm meth kit and the new R2.5 procede.
    The logs are now gone due to shiv making e90post delete them but lets review these since I saved them knowing damn well shiv would never let those out to the public.

    Looks the the same $#@! af ratio post shift, flat out dangerous.
    Tune still bogs on manual cars.
    Timing post shift even on meth takes a DUMP.
    Timing is 3-4 degrees with boost over 18psi. This is exactly what shiv bashes cobb for. Enjoy the logs, cause shiv would never let anyone see these.
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge
    Absolutly nothing has changed with the procede....except for the price tag.
    Whose logs are these? Did he have any excuse in taking them down?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    To be fair, it's not Shiv's fault timing takes a dump going into 4th gear. It's the DME targeting that curve post-shift. The point here is though, the Procede's timing "control" is not control at all. It can only add or subtract from what the DME targets.

    That log is also proof positive that the Procede (even with the larger fuel resistor) can't touch the fuel control offered by flash tunes.

    logs of single-gear pulls on a Dynojet are cute, I can show Procede logs of my 135i on a Dynojet at 18.5 psi pushing 424whp as it looks picture perfect, but real-world logs such as these are what separates a flash tune from the Procede.

    Click here to enlarge

    Here's a datalog of my car flatlining timing going into 4th as well. Shiv told me it was my crappy meth kit that is causing it. Well, his $1100 dollar meth kit is doing the same damn thing now, isn't it? Click here to enlarge
    Why doesn't Procede adjust the timing post shift? Adding/subtracting the stock timing with certain values should be the same as giving the numbers directly, no? However, the timing drop in the graph looks to be without any control indeed.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Why doesn't Procede adjust the timing post shift? Adding/subtracting the stock timing with certain values should be the same as giving the numbers directly, no? However, the timing drop in the graph looks to be without any control indeed.
    Because CPS is global; even if he dynamically advanced timing, say, 7 degrees to get to the stock curve on these instances where timing flatlines on the logged cylinder, he runs the risk of overadvancing the timing on the other cylinders which may be catastrophic. Couple this with the possibility that his fuel control is garbage to begin with, it's a recipe for disaster.

    Of course, Shiv will come in here some time today and say I'm an idiot, but them Cobb AP logs with multiple cylinders don't lie.

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