Close

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 62
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34


    5 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Lightbulb Fuel system upgrade - Part 3 that never came :)

    Alright, so, my low pressure fuel pump (LPFP) died on me last night, more info here:


    http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589990


    So, let's make that Part 3 collectively on here and possibly do a DIY...


    I've had this LPFP put in only a couple months ago while diagnosing and replacing a few parts during my misfire issues. Ever since installing this last LPFP I've also had the Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump (voltage regulator/amplifier) wired into it. While I doubt it caused the pump to die prematurely its possible. This BAP was wired in and it was always set at the MIN (or lean as they call it on the adjustment knob) setting which is basically a bypass/passthrough mode. Last night while doing some testing of the new race tune I've been playing with (Cobb+jb4) I decided to turn up the BAP setting to MAX (or rich as they call it on the adjustment knob). Now, I've run this max setting before a few times already and there were no issues. After running about 2-3 times with the MAX setting on the BAP, I came off the highway to flash a different map to the car and get back on the highway to retest one last time before hitting the track this morning but that didn't happen. After reflashing I cranked the car and it started but then the engine quickly died. I cranked it again, turns on and dies again right after, doesn't hold idle. I plugged the AP in and used the Monitor feature and saw the LPFP pressure, which is supposed to be 72psi at idle and between cranks (LPFP requested pressure monitor on the AP shows this) the actual fuel pressure was only 15-18psi and wouldn't move. I also wasn't hearing the pump priming at all. At this moment I don't know if it really is the pump or maybe as simple as a fuse but in any case, I've been thinking of trying something else on the car...


    A "fuel system upgrade" Click here to enlarge lol


    The stock in-tank fuel pump is "rated" at 90LPH but we all know it supports more than that as many of us are pushing way more than what the theoretical HP fuel limit is for a 90LPH fuel pump. There are some theories on fuel system limitations on the N54 that hint at ~480-500whp as the stock fuel system limits and I'm not sure what to think of that but given the stock low pressure fuel pump official rating I can't say that I'd disagree much.


    So, what can be done is the question...Some of the info has been hinted at on these forums before by Shiv and his part 1 and 2 fuel pump testing and some has already shown partial success by the BMS team by using the Kenne Belle Boost-A-Pump which by many isn't considered a viable long term alternative and in my case, it quite possibly could be the cause behind my 4-5 month premature LPFP failure last night.


    One option that I've come across through some Google skills is a Bosch 044 inline fuel pump, specs here:


    http://www.boschfuelpumps.com/


    The part number of the Bosch 044 pump (ends with 044) are on the above site but I'll past them in here for completeness sake:


    ==============
    Bosch 044 fuel pumps mount inline (out side of your gas tank), most commonly rear center under your car or truck. Each Bosch 044 inline fuel pump provides 300LPH of flow and operate at 72.5 PSI. Bosch 0-580-254-044 fuel pumps are comparable to the Walbro 255LPH high pressure inline fuel pumps which can both support vehicles for up to 600-700 horse power. Can be used in sequence with an intank Walbro or Bosch 040 fuel pump.


    Bosch 044 Fuel Pump Specs:
    Bosch Part Number: 0580254044
    Minimum Current: 12 Volts
    Operating Pressure: 72.5 PSI (5 Bar)
    Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 80 GPH (300 LPH)
    Fuel Pump Location: In-Line
    High Temperature Reduction: 8 GPH (30 LPH)
    Weight: 1030 Grams (2.27 Pounds)


    ===========


    Now, if you look closely this pump has the clear advantage of 300LPH which is way more than the stock rating of the stock pump. What doesn't sit too well is the following:


    ==
    1) Requires 12volts - the stock fuel pump at idle sits somewhere around 7volts and voltage is regulated by the EKP (fuel pump controller that's above the back seat) anywhere between 7 and 11 volts during WOT which raises pressure sometimes to even 85psi to meet the fuel volume demand coming from the HPFP/motor side. QUESTION: How do we address this? Does it need to be addressed at all and why not just give the pump 12volts all the time?


    2) Dimensions - I have a feeling that this pump's dimensions might be slightly larger than the stock pump. If it is bigger then a new bracket will be required for it to make it sit inside the tank properly.


    3) Pump is meant as an inline pump, not intank - The Bosch 044 pump is intended to be used as an inline pump. They're VERY noisy pumps but are MANY times more reliable than the Walbro 255lph from everything I've read. I'd like to run just one not two pumps if possible personally, less things to worry about and I'd really like to get rid of the stock fuel pump if at all possible (may not be due to issues stated in 1 above and the stock pump may need to be used as well as the intank and 044 as inline, trying to avoid it). However, it is very encouraging to know that the Bosch 044 CAN be mounted intank as well and that quite a few setups are running this way. Here's an example of such setup on a rotary mazda:


    http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=59612


    My main concern is the heat the pump gives away, does it run hot, and if/how that'd impact the in-tank fuel temperature.
    ===


    The reason I like the Bosch 044 inside the fuel tank is noise levels will be much reduced and more importantly I'd be running one single pump instead of two so less points of failure. I really don't want to have 3 fuel pumps on the car, that'd be a disaster Click here to enlarge


    Let's get the dialogue going and see what the collective thinks of this or any other setup that you may think would work. What data would you like to gather to support your ideas, etc etc.


    One of the key elements required to get the Bosch 044 to work inside the tank is this little 30 micron filter:
    http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?m...products_id=62
    Click here to enlarge

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Miami, FL.
    Posts
    1,836
    Rep Points
    771.0
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Yes Reputation No
    great info man, awesome post. +rep. sorry to hear of your car's troubles but as always its in the name of advancement of the n54 platform Click here to enlarge i wish i could answer your questions but i'm plainly unqualified. i'll be sure to forward this thread to friends who do know much more about this subject and get back to you soon unless someone else jumps on it and can reply with helpful insight to your quandaries. it would be great if all our fuel issue was is a $#@!ty lpfp unable to give enough fuel to the hpfp (for consistency at over 500wheel). i mean we know the injectors are not even sweating at our power level from the duty cycle, so this definitely could be the cause, i'll let you know as soon as i have technical and helpful info.
    Click here to enlarge
    2007 335i Coupe
    Mods: Check the Garage

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34



    Yes Reputation No
    It was the 20a fuse that blew making the lpfp unusable Click here to enlarge flashing the car with the BAP at MAX setting won't be done again! Lol

    Still on the quest for a better flowing LPFP though
    Click here to enlarge

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    i cant offer any insight as i ran the car on the dyno (10 runs) and then about 5 passes at the strip the next day with BAP on max. i havent had the chance, nor reason to have it higher than "0" since then.

    i dohowever look forward to your testing

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,738
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Out of curiousity why are you doing this to begin with? You are not out of fuel and your a/f ratios look fine. Were you starting to run out of fuel on the bigger power tune?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Out of curiousity why are you doing this to begin with? You are not out of fuel and your a/f ratios look fine. Were you starting to run out of fuel on the bigger power tune?
    good question. i thought you (DZ) were saying someone saw we are only really at 30% fueling?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,738
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    good question. i thought you (DZ) were saying someone saw we are only really at 30% fueling?
    I dunno where you saw that, but it wasnt from me. Personally i do think a flash will raise the fueling limit over a piggy, the question is by how much.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Not you, DZ had said that, which is why your question is such an intriguing one

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    8,212
    Rep Points
    9,337.7
    Mentioned
    653 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    94


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    On the fueling if we had the time I'd try raising the pressure between the low pressure regulator and the inlet of the high pressure pump. Maybe from 72psi to 100psi. I suspect the limitation is there. It would take some custom work and perhaps a spare I/O piggyback signal to trick the DME but may extend the fueling limit IMHO.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Out of curiousity why are you doing this to begin with? You are not out of fuel and your a/f ratios look fine. Were you starting to run out of fuel on the bigger power tune?
    I posted this this morning before realizing that my fuel system's fuse blew and not my lpfp. However, I'm just posting this because I have a feeling that we might bump up against that ceiling sometime soon with more timing (e.g. Stock timing say) and max boost on RBs...nothing I saw so far hints at fuel system "limits" yet though at least not on my car yet...I'll be getting some racegas and going to 20psi soon to see how the fuel system/targeting responds...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    good question. i thought you (DZ) were saying someone saw we are only really at 30% fueling?
    Stock tune's short term fuel trims are 33.4% max. You can see this easily by logging them using the BT tool or procede or jb4 (think it was recently added as well)...this means that piggies have a max wiggle room of 33.4% of the fuel they can add that they can see...once stock fuel trims are maxed and fuel pressure is upped on the rail "IMO" you're basically at the limits of what the stock fuel system will provide with the stock fuel system programming and AFR targets...just an opinion not fact...I think it's really important to keep an eye on short term fuel trims as we go up in hp
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,892
    Rep Points
    1,422.5
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    15


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    ^
    LOL at you calling Shiv out on his single turbo project on bpost.

    He went from 0-100 pissed off in one post.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    8,212
    Rep Points
    9,337.7
    Mentioned
    653 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    94


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shiv@Vishnu
    Also incorrect. The factory FPR is insufficiently sized to return the amount of excess fuel flow that the 044 will flow at standard voltages (6v and up). As a result, the fuel pressure sensor (at the inlet of the HPFP) will see implausibly higher pressures and trip a fuel pressure code which will result in the ENTIRE LPFP being driven at a fixed DC of 50-60%. Instead of ramping up to 100% at full load. Thus, defeating the purpose of installing an upgraded fuel pump.
    If you unplug the fuel pressure sensor the DME runs a preset duty cycle map to the low pressure pump based on load. And of course, it's super easy to intercept and alter the low pressure signal with a piggyback if you really want to remap low pressure to work within some set of parameters. I really don't understand why you make these disingenuous technical replies? Like when you told us all the factory fuel pump runs at only 11v?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    937
    Rep Points
    562.7
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    DZ, piggies are NOT maxed at 34%... this is the trim max for CL, and OL is adjusted by upping the rail pressure. I guess piggy could have a lower fuel ceiling, but only because they can't control IDC... ie. IDC adjustment at a lower pressure may result in a tad more fuel.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34



    Yes Reputation No
    Josh I said once "both" the STFTs ans rail pressure are maxed ... See my post again
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    ^
    LOL at you calling Shiv out on his single turbo project on bpost.

    He went from 0-100 pissed off in one post.
    lol, i saw that too. "2 weeks" and then turned into not a guarantee. love his marketing though. where are the 530 hp dyno's at? and what PSI? 22 again Click here to enlarge

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    82
    Rep Points
    100.5
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    That thread went down hill fast lol it was just a matter of time. After dz switched tunes it wasn't a matter of if it was going to happen but when.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    DZ, no use alerting mod staff over there, thats what sent me over the edge way back. he can personally insult all he wants, but his $ speaks louder than your words, so its a moot point. at least you have the reserve to not tell him what youd like to do to him upon meeting him Click here to enlarge

    very intrigued with where your going with the fuel system though

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    338
    Rep Points
    442.7
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    5


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Yea it was a real comedy on e90. Even if it was true that DZ more or less runned from the Dyno bill, which I don't believe for a second, it doesn't help Vishnu to claim this in public. I like the Procede tune but is not impressed by the people behind it when they act as they do.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    DZ should not have payed for dyno time, it was his car, and helped the shiv in his R&D for a misfire fix (is even fixed yet?) and to try and tune upgraded turbo car, not DZ's fault the shiver wanted to come on out

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Miami, FL.
    Posts
    1,836
    Rep Points
    771.0
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    8


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    a misfire fix (is even fixed yet?)
    it's band-aided. the 'misfire' (if it can be called that, the n54 seems to throw a bunch of different problems into the 'misfire' code/category) is still present however misfire detection is turned off on his car in order to not throw a code/limp. his engine is functioning fine tho as we all can see.
    Click here to enlarge
    2007 335i Coupe
    Mods: Check the Garage

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,738
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Shiv just gave an infraction for posting
    "Nice, looks like you took a lesson from the Cobb tune regarding boost."
    He copied the cobb boost curve after giving me $#@! about it and it being dangerous. If anything it was a compliment.

    What a $#@!en tool, just wait shiv, I will flood e90 with a ton of wonder logs over the years. Enjoy

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Won't matter though, noobs will just say your a Cobb fanboi and have a vendetta against the almighty

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34



    Yes Reputation No
    I'm really speechless after all that...in terms of him coming up here and dyno time it was 110% all him...i never asked him to come or do anything but give me a map to run with RB turbos that didn't misfire...that was all, he chose to come up here and I gave him all the right to put my car through hell and back to get the tuning right...what i realized later was that he only came because of his own r&d, the damn upgraded turbo maps (RB maps) came out after that trip...and then somehow he thought i'd pay for 9 hours of dyno time??? He dynoed John's car in that time too (shop owner's cousin) but they didn't charge him 700 as he said, they charged him 500...anyways lies and bull$#@! again, but what's new...he's lucky those guys didn't charge him the going rate of $100/hr for dyno as they're nice enough to give him a break because of me and John so he basically paid half...it was my 100 for race gas and I paid for him changing meth nozzles on the dyno which i also didn't ask for..he thought he needed more fuel because rev2 procede couldn't push more than 13AFR midrange with those fueling resistors

    man i'm just glad i've seen the light after so long both man wise and tune wise...$#@! him, time to move on...but i do owe him quite a few AFR logs lol both part throttle and post shift and ESPECIALLY those where the procede logs were off by up to 1.3 AFR points...i would've posted them a long time ago but i honestly don't know what good it is, its just another bull$#@! thread that I really don't enjoy in the end, i'm really just not the type nor do i have the time to entertain his bull$#@! talk anymore
    Click here to enlarge

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,892
    Rep Points
    1,422.5
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    15


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Shiv seems to be really good at burning bridges.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    www.bootmod3.com
    Posts
    6,693
    Rep Points
    3,352.2
    Mentioned
    227 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    34



    Yes Reputation No
    watch what will happen down the road as some other long time proceders try "other" tunes...dude is such piece of work, really amazing
    Click here to enlarge

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •