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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Without the nitrous for oxygen with all the excess fuel the car would likely just think it was dumping fuel and the tune would be a mess. I don't know if direct port nitrous with direct injection is a concern or not, not sure.

    Someone will figure something out but this is kind of a nightmare.
    Huh? I think you misunderstand what direct port nitrous means. It has nothing to do with DI it's just each intake runner gets a fuel and nitrous nozzle so you get very precise ditribution of the fuel and nitrous. It's basically a similar idea to what Terry proposed except that you wouldn't have to worry about running inconsistent AFR's in each cylinder as you would with a single nozzle prior to the TB. As for the nitrous there is no reason why you couldn't run it except alot of people fear it so I suggested you run the fuel without the nitrous and add the extra oxygen by upping the boost. It's NO different than what other people have tried except that it would work. Again I know your gonna hit back with why don't I make a kit then and sell them. That's not my business and I don't have a fueling need right now but I'm fairly confident that if I have an issue with the N63 and I'm determined to get more fuel that this would be a fix that could be made to work in weeks not longer. I personally wouldn't go for something like staged injection unless it was absolutely necessary as I'd prefer a more elegant solution but we'll see how the N63 develops.

  2. #52
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    he means somehting like OB is doing with his, just not use N20:

    Click here to enlarge

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Isn't the problem with an additional injector though even fuel distribution?
    I guess it could be, but it should atomize better than meth would as long as you are using a proper fuel inector. My thought is if there is less fuel getting to one cylinder, there is probably less air getting to it as well. The atomized fluid should pretty much go where ever the air is going. Maybe someone that knows more about fluid dynamics can chime in.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    he means somehting like OB is doing with his, just not use N20:

    Click here to enlarge
    That's exactly what I mean, who is OB? Is he planning on running nitrous?

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    Although if you don't run a secondary fuel pump it will not solve a damn thing but setting up an entirely separate fuel system should be simple.

  6. #56
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    OldBooster has a 135, and runs nitrous, he just got his RB's. he HAD the record of 11.15@124 on N20/stock turbo, before I took it. he is dialing in the RB's now and ran 11.3@123 a day or so ago, no NOS, no weight reduction and 94*/90% humidty in Florida

    and has a 2nd pump for his wet shot.

    same stuff your talking about. i believe georgeSmooth is about to do the same thing as well

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    OldBooster has a 135, and runs nitrous, he just got his RB's. he HAD the record of 11.15@124 on N20/stock turbo, before I took it. he is dialing in the RB's now and ran 11.3@123 a day or so ago, no NOS, no weight reduction and 94*/90% humidty in Florida

    and has a 2nd pump for his wet shot.

    same stuff your talking about. i believe georgeSmooth is about to do the same thing as well
    Yeah that is perfect, I'm running the same thing on my drag car as I'm running ethanol as my primary fuel but it damages the solenoids in the NOS kit so what I did is set up a secondary fuel system for the NOS that will run VP import. With the proper sized nozzles you should be able to run as much fuel as you want and up the boost a ton. Problem solved.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    he means somehting like OB is doing with his, just not use N20:

    Click here to enlarge
    Except for the N2O part of this setup, it is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of.

    Since the JB4 has N2O intergration features, could those be used to start a secondary fuel pump/solenoid instead of N2O using wet shot nozzles but ignoring the actual N2O for those who only want the fuel?
    Last edited by xbox_fan; 07-20-2011 at 04:24 AM. Reason: spelling
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    997.1 tt
    Kline 200cell exhaust
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    Cobb E85 custom stage3 tune by Mitch
    ID1000 injectors
    Sachs stage 2.5 clutch

  9. #59
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    we'd have to ask T

  10. #60
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    I like where this thread is going Click here to enlarge
    07 e92 335i Best run: 11.83@ 120.04 w/ 1.84 60' & 2127 DA

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    Except for the N2O part of this setup, it is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of.

    Since the JB4 has N2O intergration features, could those be used to start a secondary fuel pump/solenoid instead of N2O using wet shot nozzles but ignoring the actual N2O for those who only want the fuel?
    I'm not at all familiar with the BMS piggy but I know you can use one of the mappable outputs on the procede to run this and I'm pretty sure it's the same with the jb4. If you really wanted to get extreme you could run fuel our of both nozzles and use large pills and get all the fuel you would ever need. Some people will tell you that the fueling thing is a "nightmare" but I don't see it. Even if these two piggies couldn't control it there are NOS controllers on the domestic market that do everything we are talking about from running the fuel pump to metering out the spray accusing to how you set it up. In fact there are units that work off a map sensor that are meant to spray UNTIL you get to a certain boost and they are used to spool up the turbos faster. Once they reach you preprogrammed boost level the spray is off, what we would do is program tha opposite and have it triggered once we reach a specific level off boost. Now granted this idea of mine isn't the most elegant solution and I would prefer a simple way to swap out the lpfp. The less amount of systems you have running the less chance you have of something failing but these Nitrous kits are nothing new and are super reliable. They don't run anything corrosive like meth to make them fail you'd be using pure gasoline. Is this really what has been holding back the N54?

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  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Huh? I think you misunderstand what direct port nitrous means. It has nothing to do with DI it's just each intake runner gets a fuel and nitrous nozzle so you get very precise ditribution of the fuel and nitrous. It's basically a similar idea to what Terry proposed except that you wouldn't have to worry about running inconsistent AFR's in each cylinder as you would with a single nozzle prior to the TB. As for the nitrous there is no reason why you couldn't run it except alot of people fear it so I suggested you run the fuel without the nitrous and add the extra oxygen by upping the boost. It's NO different than what other people have tried except that it would work. Again I know your gonna hit back with why don't I make a kit then and sell them. That's not my business and I don't have a fueling need right now but I'm fairly confident that if I have an issue with the N63 and I'm determined to get more fuel that this would be a fix that could be made to work in weeks not longer. I personally wouldn't go for something like staged injection unless it was absolutely necessary as I'd prefer a more elegant solution but we'll see how the N63 develops.
    I understand what direct port means but what I am saying is will it be a mess tuning it with direct injection motors?

    Have we seen direct port nitrous used yet? How about just supplemental port fuel injection?

  14. #64
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    N54 is closed loop system so it doesn't need any tuning.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I understand what direct port means but what I am saying is will it be a mess tuning it with direct injection motors?

    Have we seen direct port nitrous used yet? How about just supplemental port fuel injection?
    Why would it be a mess? I think you have this idea of DI being some super complex and mysterious thing when it's not all that changes is the placement of the injectors. There are plenty of DI motors running direct port nitrous and even just standard wet shots. You could use the nitrous if you wanted but if all you want is what you referred to as supplemental port fuel injection that would work just fine also. I'm just giving you an easy way to make it happen. You can literally pick from dozens of direct NO2 kits that have been proven to work and all you would have to do is run fuel to both nozzles. I have a NOS direct kit on my RB and I took the nozzles to a fuel injector place by my house and they flow benched them for me to give me the cc/min. All you would need to do is tune the fuel to match the boost which would be the hardest part. Installing a kit like this is done by any shop in a days work the tuning may take a few weeks? But it's nothing that can't be done. If you see any issue please point it out and don't just say it will be a "mess" or nightmare I mean specific problems? And if they are legitimate we'll figure them out. This should have been solved along time ago. I'm half hoping my N63 runs out of fuel at a low level of power too so I can walk the walk but if not we need someone to man up and spend the 1,500 this would cost to do right.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    N54 is closed loop system so it doesn't need any tuning.
    your semi right but this would be a separate system that wouldn't be controlled by the dme so any increased oxygen past what the stock fueling system could cover would need to be tuned for in either the piggyback or a NO2 controller. Besides call me crazy but you guys already let the knock sensor take care of timing now your happy with letting the O2 handle fueling? I wouldn't bet my engine on one sensor let alone two I still like tuners. First thing my tuner on the RB told me was to throw out the damn knock sensors.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Why would it be a mess? I think you have this idea of DI being some super complex and mysterious thing when it's not all that changes is the placement of the injectors. There are plenty of DI motors running direct port nitrous and even just standard wet shots. You could use the nitrous if you wanted but if all you want is what you referred to as supplemental port fuel injection that would work just fine also. I'm just giving you an easy way to make it happen. You can literally pick from dozens of direct NO2 kits that have been proven to work and all you would have to do is run fuel to both nozzles. I have a NOS direct kit on my RB and I took the nozzles to a fuel injector place by my house and they flow benched them for me to give me the cc/min. All you would need to do is tune the fuel to match the boost which would be the hardest part. Installing a kit like this is done by any shop in a days work the tuning may take a few weeks? But it's nothing that can't be done. If you see any issue please point it out and don't just say it will be a "mess" or nightmare I mean specific problems? And if they are legitimate we'll figure them out. This should have been solved along time ago. I'm half hoping my N63 runs out of fuel at a low level of power too so I can walk the walk but if not we need someone to man up and spend the 1,500 this would cost to do right.
    If it's easy why isn't it done yet?

    I think port + direct does make for some tuning issues. I don't know, I just know I haven't seen anyone get something like that working but people have tried.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If it's easy why isn't it done yet?

    I think port + direct does make for some tuning issues. I don't know, I just know I haven't seen anyone get something like that working but people have tried.
    If everyone had that attitude nothing would get done. Just because something is easy doesn't mean that it's easy done right away. Look at how many Turbo'd V8's there are yet companies hadn't reversed the ports. Or crisscrossing the manifold to match up the firing order on the turbos. These are things that when told to you it sounds easy but are new to the F10. Really people have tried using a direct port nitrous kit as a pure fueling solution and it didn't work? Please attach a link since you've seen this tried and failed as I'd love to see what went wrong. You've seen people using direct port nitrous kits with DI without problems right? So what would be different if it was just gas compared to NO2 and gas? I'm gonna sound like a dick but your just saying this or that won't work without an actual reason or knowledge as to how this even works, why?

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    I think it will work, as in theory everything youve said is correct. Im gonna let George and OB pave that path. if between them they can get the system up and running properly and "safely" im willing to buy the N20 kit, extra manifold and go to work. I think it will be a challenge though.. but if a success, ill also be willing to swap in a 3bar Tmap and push my motor to 25 psi. It would be nice to be able to run 20 daily on pump/meth and 20+ on race/meth.

    id probably only start it after i source a 2nd motor and begin the build as i think it would not be a far stretch for my current motor to find its limits somewhere inbetween

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I think it will work, as in theory everything youve said is correct. Im gonna let George and OB pave that path. if between them they can get the system up and running properly and "safely" im willing to buy the N20 kit, extra manifold and go to work. I think it will be a challenge though.. but if a success, ill also be willing to swap in a 3bar Tmap and push my motor to 25 psi. It would be nice to be able to run 20 daily on pump/meth and 20+ on race/meth.

    id probably only start it after i source a 2nd motor and begin the build as i think it would not be a far stretch for my current motor to find its limits somewhere inbetween
    Just curious but why would you buy a second manifold?

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    2 reasons, 1, incase the porting for the jets doesnt go perfectly, i have a backup on hand, 2 if i ever need to go back to stock, or need to go back to stock manifold for whatever reason, id have it on hand.

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    Oh ok thought maybe you thought you couldn't run it without using the nozzles.

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    Would be nice if we could run 20 PSI on 93 octane.
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    I know my e30 with the little 1.8L m10 engine is nothing like the n54, however, I do have experience in direct port methanol injection as well as a secondary methanol system for my turbo system. Just to give you some numbers, I am running 22 psi boost on the stock ecu/engine. My direct port meth system is set at 160 lb/hr + The secondary system is set at 50 lb/hr. The reason I run so much methanol is because my ecu afm does not measure manifold pressure.

    So with that said, how much extra whp you looking for? If the n54 injectors are maxed out, just add fuel, no? I wouldn't do it with anything except with methanol though. Meth is an awesome fuel for FI engines.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Just because something is easy doesn't mean that it's easy done right away.
    If it's easy, and there is demand, why wouldn't it be complete already?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Really people have tried using a direct port nitrous kit as a pure fueling solution and it didn't work?
    People have tried using port injected fuel, as in, unfor. This is trying to accomplish the same goal by means of port injection, right?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    You've seen people using direct port nitrous kits with DI without problems right? So what would be different if it was just gas compared to NO2 and gas?
    No, I haven't. Most people use a dry shot for a reason. But, I haven't seen direct port yet only that old booster is trying something like it but have not seen results yet. He ran without nitrous at the strip and did well. I haven't seen it done yet which does not mean it is not possible.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I'm gonna sound like a dick but your just saying this or that won't work without an actual reason or knowledge as to how this even works, why?
    Why? Because the typical attitude on forums is that doing things with these cars is oh so easy and people sit back and type like they have all the answers. While reality does not follow it whatsoever. I'm not saying your theory isn't possible, just that it is a theory and clearly not simple as there is no support for it in reality only theoretical.

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