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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There is WAY more than BMS and Vishnu. We are talking the entirety of the BMW aftermarket hasn't been able to do it. It just isn't simple. Not like some GTR tuner will look at an N54 and have it figure out overnight.

    The ecu isn't even the main challenge, it's the physical hardware just with direct injection itself.

    Dinan isn't a big company? Hamann? AC-Schnitzer? Nowack? G-power? None of the big Euros have cracked it which doesn't suprise me that none of the big US tuners have cracked it.
    What is the difficulty with the hardware? Any hardware can be upgraded just fine if there is a customer paying for a skilled professional to do it. PAW said they could do it but nobody appeared with the money since the development cost cannot be accurately known beforehand.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Dinan doesn't do big power. They are more than happy to sell you flash tunes for close to stock cars that provide a small boost and warranty. Same with Hamann and ACS they buy their tunes as well. G power is badass and they have made good power but I wasn't aware they had anything for the N54. Ahh yeah the DI excuse, what exactly is so difficult about DI? What is it about the DI system that has the N54 limited? The HPFP? No. The injectors? No. That's the extent of the DI difference. What about the M3? Is that held back by the DI as well? Oh wait lol. I'll say it again, to my knowledge NO big company that has experience making 1,000whp+ cars has taken a crack at the N54 because there is no money in it. Not to keep harping on the GTR's but its a car I'm alittle familiar with(Nissan guy) but there is a guy who spent like 40k GBP which is about the cost of the car here on a JUN stroked engine and upgraded gearbox. He made 1,013whp and cracked the block after 1600mls and what did he do? Sent it to japan with an order to do whatever to get the block up to par. That's why issues are surpassed quickly because there are plenty of people willing to throw money at any problem. Ask Shiv or Terry to get you a fuel solution asap regardless ofthe cost and watch how quickly you'll get a solution. But right now they'd make more money adding little improvements and selling products. It's all economics.
    Dinan does do big power for race teams and such. They can engineer and they haven't been able to come up with anything.

    Hamann and ACS tune overseas and have connections inside BMW. Don't you think they would be the first to know of a solution same way they are the first to get ecu's cracked?

    G-power tunes a variety of vehicles.

    There is much more money in the N54 than other cars because there are so many of them. The problem is not the money in it but the difficult in getting it done. I spoke to Neel@Apex on this very topic so maybe wait until you see the interview? BMW's hardware and software is the main hurdle so yes, again, it is the engineers.

    Fuel solution regardless of the cost? BMW can't even get a working solution for the stock motor.

    If you think it is so simple go make a fuel upgrade and corner the market. What's the hold up?

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    What is the difficulty with the hardware? Any hardware can be upgraded just fine if there is a customer paying for a skilled professional to do it. PAW said they could do it but nobody appeared with the money since the development cost cannot be accurately known beforehand.
    Exactly! To steal a line from one of my favorite movies "you got the bucks you get what you need!"

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    What is the difficulty with the hardware? Any hardware can be upgraded just fine if there is a customer paying for a skilled professional to do it. PAW said they could do it but nobody appeared with the money since the development cost cannot be accurately known beforehand.
    Seems like there is plenty of difficulty even with the stock hardware. It isn't simple, nobody has done it.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Exactly! To steal a line from one of my favorite movies "you got the bucks you get what you need!"
    Problems are so easily solved by forum experts, lol.

    Ok guys, fuel problem has been figured out. The problem is a lack of money.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Dinan does do big power for race teams and such. They can engineer and they haven't been able to come up with anything.

    Hamann and ACS tune overseas and have connections inside BMW. Don't you think they would be the first to know of a solution same way they are the first to get ecu's cracked?

    G-power tunes a variety of vehicles.

    There is much more money in the N54 than other cars because there are so many of them. The problem is not the money in it but the difficult in getting it done. I spoke to Neel@Apex on this very topic so maybe wait until you see the interview? BMW's hardware and software is the main hurdle so yes, again, it is the engineers.

    Fuel solution regardless of the cost? BMW can't even get a working solution for the stock motor.

    If you think it is so simple go make a fuel upgrade and corner the market. What's the hold up?
    Man when you don't want to admit something you just go in circles. NONE of those companies sell(or probably even made) a 1,000hp car. Nevermind that none of them are working one the fueling issue to begin with. How many people are willing to spend 40-50k on their N54? Because that's what it's gonna take to make real big power. That's why there's no research behind it. Hell I can find you a post on here by Terry not 3 months ago where he said BMS had no interest on working on fueling for the reasons I'm citing.

    BMW couldn't make it work? Now I know your being rediculous! You realize that the issue they are having is one of longevity and not of volume right? You understand the difference? They could make a fuel system that would flow whatever the hell they wanted but it's making it last that they can't do. And that's not even true as the N63 doesn't appear to have that issue.

    If I had an N54 and was aiming for big power I would be diligently working on figuring it out with a company. If it's an issue with the N63 we'll see a solution quicker than it's taken for the N54 I'm pretty sure about that.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Man when you don't want to admit something you just go in circles. NONE of those companies sell(or probably even made) a 1,000hp car
    Since when is a 1,000 hp car a prerequisite for making a fuel pump for a car in the 500 hp range? What difference does it make? You are arguing in circles.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    How many people are willing to spend 40-50k on their N54? Because that's what it's gonna take to make real big power. That's why there's no research behind it. Hell I can find you a post on here by Terry not 3 months ago where he said BMS had no interest on working on fueling for the reasons I'm citing.
    Fuel limits are being hit on stock turbos with nitrous. It isn't a function of the 40-50k customer. The reason the GTR can make the power it does is because direct injection isn't the limiting factor or an ECU designed to stump someone at every turn.

    You can find posts less than 3 months ago of BMS working on the fuel, so, point contradicted with evidence.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    BMW couldn't make it work? Now I know your being rediculous! You realize that the issue they are having is one of longevity and not of volume right? You understand the difference? They could make a fuel system that would flow whatever the hell they wanted but it's making it last that they can't do. And that's not even true as the N63 doesn't appear to have that issue.
    BMW struggles with the fuel pump, yes or no? Are these issues exponentially higher in modified applications? Well, if BMW can't get the stock fuel pump right with infinite resources it seems to be it isn't very simple to begin with let alone in higher HP applications.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    If I had an N54 and was aiming for big power I would be diligently working on figuring it out with a company. If it's an issue with the N63 we'll see a solution quicker than it's taken for the N54 I'm pretty sure about that.
    There are thousands of tuned N54's out there. There are many companies that have tried with the fueling. AR, PAW, CP-E, BMS, Vishnu, JE, etc. Are they all incompetent? The one common point is nobody has one. That leads me to believe the problem is not effort or money but the complexity. Considering I asked a tuner this question and his answer is what I am telling you maybe you should listen?

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Since when is a 1,000 hp car a prerequisite for making a fuel pump for a car in the 500 hp range? What difference does it make? You are arguing in circles.

    If you go back to when we started discussing this you were saying why is their a GTR with 1300whp and no fueling solution for the N54 or high hp E92 M3. Well I'm saying it's because their isn't enough of a market to entice companies to spend big resources for the few people who may want it. The M3 is a regular engine nothing amazing or complicated about it(not that DI is complicated) and still their isn't one in the range of the GTR even though they've been out for around the same time(I think) and cost around the same.

    Fuel limits are being hit on stock turbos with nitrous. It isn't a function of the 40-50k customer. The reason the GTR can make the power it does is because direct injection isn't the limiting factor or an ECU designed to stump someone at every turn.

    You can find posts less than 3 months ago of BMS working on the fuel, so, point contradicted with evidence.

    What I'm telling you is that if their was someone determined to make a huge HP N54 regardless of the cost it would have been figured out already. Even if they came out with a fueling solution today that cost $1500 how many people out there would need it? And that proves my point, Terry started a few months ago(because shiv said he had a solution) and said he was making good progress then shiv stopped the updates and so did Terry(from my knowledge) either way 2 months isn't exactly an eternity and he was supposedly making good progress


    BMW struggles with the fuel pump, yes or no? Are these issues exponentially higher in modified applications? Well, if BMW can't get the stock fuel pump right with infinite resources it seems to be it isn't very simple to begin with let alone in higher HP applications.

    BMW struggles with making the HPFP last which has nothing to do with getting more fuel to the engine. From what the tuners have said it's the lpfp that doesn't flow enough which has NEVER been the issue with BMW. Spin it however you'd like but they are different things completely

    There are thousands of tuned N54's out there. There are many companies that have tried with the fueling. AR, PAW, CP-E, BMS, Vishnu, JE, etc. Are they all incompetent? The one common point is nobody has one. That leads me to believe the problem is not effort or money but the complexity. Considering I asked a tuner this question and his answer is what I am telling you maybe you should listen?
    I'll reserve any opinion on those companies as I haven't dealt with any except AR and I don't know the story behind their fuel upgrade attempts(share the link to any info on here)

  9. #34
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    I think you are both right, the n54 market is huge, but to make money you need volume since the owners are used to cheap extra hp, and it is a relatively cheap daily driver for ppl.

    Somehow BMW knows how to build 500hp + DI engines (X5M etc) but cannot get the n54 stock parts to work, it is weird.

    I beleive the realistic way forward for now is a secondary system that tops up with fuel when needed (based on boost/rpm) since the DI system is closed loop it should be pretty straight forward compared to upgrading the stock DI fuel system.
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    If you go back to when we started discussing this you were saying why is their a GTR with 1300whp and no fueling solution for the N54 or high hp E92 M3. Well I'm saying it's because their isn't enough of a market to entice companies to spend big resources for the few people who may want it. The M3 is a regular engine nothing amazing or complicated about it(not that DI is complicated) and still their isn't one in the range of the GTR even though they've been out for around the same time(I think) and cost around the same.
    Yes, as in poking fun at the disparity. Just because these cars hit 1000+ does not mean their tuners get some giant knowledge gain and know everything there is to know about N54 fuel pumps. The E92 M3 has fueling solutions, that isn't the problem, tuning is a much larger hurdle.

    The M3 is a regular motor? Ok, you go add forced induction to a 12.0:1 motor and see how it goes. It is far more difficult to add boost to NA M motors than it is to work with a GTR. That, or you are new to BMW tuning. You'll find out on your own with your N63. We'll see how far you get if you do but it is still easier to add boost on factory forced induction motors than high strung NA motor. Or maybe you have an explanation for why the S54 turbo market isn't diverse?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    What I'm telling you is that if their was someone determined to make a huge HP N54 regardless of the cost it would have been figured out already. Even if they came out with a fueling solution today that cost $1500 how many people out there would need it? And that proves my point, Terry started a few months ago(because shiv said he had a solution) and said he was making good progress then shiv stopped the updates and so did Terry(from my knowledge) either way 2 months isn't exactly an eternity and he was supposedly making good progress
    What I'm telling you is it isn't quite that simple and no solution exists. You have no solution other than to say it is easy and 1000+ hp tuners could do it. Sure, then do it.

    How many people buy $50k GTR 1300 whp upgrades? I bet not nearly as many as are interested in N54 fueling solutions for $1500. Regardless, economies of scale work in the N54's favor especially with time, not against it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    BMW struggles with making the HPFP last which has nothing to do with getting more fuel to the engine. From what the tuners have said it's the lpfp that doesn't flow enough which has NEVER been the issue with BMW. Spin it however you'd like but they are different things completely
    Sounds to me like the problem is getting fuel to the engine, short term or long term. Either way, it's a fueling problem. They have messed around with the LPFP, it isn't simple. The HPFP is also a problem. They may be different things but it doesn't change the fact there is no fuel solution and there likely isn't going to be one for a while as every attempt has not worked thus far. I hope it happens but you are trivializing the difficult and boiling it down to 1000+ hp tuners being superior to everyone who is working on these cars which is not the case.

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    See I think your confused about the markets of say an N54 vs a GTR. Look up AMS or Switzer or SVM or JUN or HKS or Forged Performance or SPE and a few others and there are literally 100's of built GTR's. Nevermind tuned ones I'm talking fully built, how many N54's or M3's are there built like that? Your right there is a big market for moderately tuned N54's that outnumber GTR's but alot more people are willing to go all out with those cars. Regardless we can go back and forth but I just don't see it being such an insurmountable hurdle if there was sufficient interest behind it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    See I think your confused about the markets of say an N54 vs a GTR. Look up AMS or Switzer or SVM or JUN or HKS or Forged Performance or SPE and a few others and there are literally 100's of built GTR's. Nevermind tuned ones I'm talking fully built, how many N54's or M3's are there built like that? Your right there is a big market for moderately tuned N54's that outnumber GTR's but alot more people are willing to go all out with those cars. Regardless we can go back and forth but I just don't see it being such an insurmountable hurdle if there was sufficient interest behind it.
    Literally hundreds of built GTR's? And how many $50k+ built GTR's? How many N54 based cars does BMW sell a month vs. the entirety of the GTR production run? Come on, this isn't a problem that a GTR tuner will suddenly fix.

    Moderately tuned N54's are hitting fuel issues. Everyone wants an aftermarket pump, low pressure, high pressure, whatever, just something that works.

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    can someone explain me what's wrong with the N54 fueling system? in English please, don't take it into experts area.

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    hpfp is prone to failure on stock cars, not expected to handle above 440ish hp fueling demands. stock HPFP cannot flow enough cc/ml to meet extended fuel requirements. cannot swap in better known aftermarket pumps. injectors may be an issue as well, -IM- not sure as a better pump is needed to try it it, although im sure the data is posted somewhere

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    so why nobody can change HPFP, fuel rails, injectors... ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    so why nobody can change HPFP, fuel rails, injectors... ?
    exactly... I'm wondering you cant just slap on a walbro 255 or some$#@! with some High flowingg custom injectors? it seems so easy and yet so tough.
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    You can't just swap in a walbro because BMW runs their lpfp at too high of a pressure for the walbro to handle safely for a long time. Also it has something to do with the wiring and how the ecu controls the pump. Besides a walbro won't get you a higher than 500whp figure specially not at 72psi. You can't just swap in another aftermarket HPFP and injectors because being DI those don't exist in the aftermarket yet. However I'm fairly certain LM is mistaken and the issue is not in the max flow rate of the HPFP or injectors. I read awhile back on YB where a domestic tuning house was building up an ecoboost engine for big power. It was the 3.5L V6 iirc and they were concerned about the fuel system and tested the system and found the injectors were working at some ridiculously low DC like 13%. the HPFP was also kept and the change made was merely to the lpfp. Which would make sense as considering how much extra time a DI injector has to fire vs regular efi one would think they'd have large capacity. Also think about LM's car, iirc he is at 500+whp? That would be pushing the limits of a walbro at 72psi so it's not as if BMW used a poor flowing pump in their someone just needs to upgrade the LPFP and see what the next limitation is.

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    The fueling issues will most likely be solved when more people willing to pay the money for mods join the community. This is usually the younger crowd. The majority of people that buy 3 series bmw's are moms/dads taking their kids to school and soccer practice. Not to mention the majority of the BMW crowd leases instead of buys so the market is even smaller because most drivers move on to another vehicle after their lease is up.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by indy99gpgt Click here to enlarge
    The fueling issues will most likely be solved when more people willing to pay the money for mods join the community. This is usually the younger crowd. The majority of people that buy 3 series bmw's are moms/dads taking their kids to school and soccer practice. Not to mention the majority of the BMW crowd leases instead of buys so the market is even smaller because most drivers move on to another vehicle after their lease is up.
    Definitely agree with you on the leasing point. Was at the dealer the other day and they said 80% lease now. It's insane, like disposable cars or renting for the rest of your life.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Right but out of those 100130810439017 billion 3 series not 1 is willing to spend the money to attract that type of development that many GTR owners will. There are plenty of camry's on the road but little demand for aftermarket ecu's I'm sure volume isn't the problem and neither is some uncrackable codes it's just the market. Hell there are even less lambos on the road than GTR's but plenty of people willing to drop 100k+ on aftermarket $#@! so AEM now tunes them.
    you actually copied the 100130810439017 haha

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    IMHO We need a 7th injector setup. You could easily machine a throttle plate adapter for one as an easy way to go or better yet a manifold spacer as has been done before, etc. You'd need to tap the low pressure system and then use a normal PWM circuit to drive it.

    Option B might be to run a lot more meth. Like a direct port meth setup with 2-3 pumps and 6 M5 or M7 nozzles.
    I like the additional fuel injector idea. I was also thinking maybe having two small injectors in the charge pipe right before the throttle body. Since our cars are very good at adjusting AFR on the fly, do you think tuning of the additional controller would be easy? I'm thinking that as long as the injector controller was was delivering based on boost (& probably RPM), the DME could adjust the DI to compensate and hold an ideal AFR (like it does with meth injection).

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    Isn't the problem with an additional injector though even fuel distribution?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Isn't the problem with an additional injector though even fuel distribution?
    its a concern

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    Hell if you guys would be happy with just injecting more fuel that way why not go with a direct port nitrous kit? You could probably even run the fuel without the nitrous and tune for more boost that way. Run another in tank pump directly to the kit and then you won't have to worry about uneven injection? It's definitely a half measure and rigged but so is the other suggestion at least this one might work better. And you can get something like that running asap with no need for any innovation it's all proven and reliable technology that can be controlled by the tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Hell if you guys would be happy with just injecting more fuel that way why not go with a direct port nitrous kit? You could probably even run the fuel without the nitrous and tune for more boost that way. Run another in tank pump directly to the kit and then you won't have to worry about uneven injection? It's definitely a half measure and rigged but so is the other suggestion at least this one might work better. And you can get something like that running asap with no need for any innovation it's all proven and reliable technology that can be controlled by the tune.
    Without the nitrous for oxygen with all the excess fuel the car would likely just think it was dumping fuel and the tune would be a mess. I don't know if direct port nitrous with direct injection is a concern or not, not sure.

    Someone will figure something out but this is kind of a nightmare.

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