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  1. #1
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    Simple n54 fueling solution?

    I was thinking if one could use the Coolingmist VC-2 controller to run a standard EFI fuel pump and 6 small injectors to "solve" the fueling issues using upgraded turbos.

    I just set my vc2 up and noticed it can run the pump based on both boost and rpm, and since the n54 is closed-loop, couldnt one just spray fuel using normal small port injectors to solve this?

    I might miss something but it should be easy for the vc-2 to run a 50-70 psi pump instead of the 250psi one it ships with. Then one need 6small injectors, they need to be mounted in something, but one could almost tap the stock manifold to test this...

    Am I missing something obvious here? Or is this a simple cheap solution worth trying?
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  2. #2
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    Doesn't seem like there is any simple solution.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking if one could use the Coolingmist VC-2 controller to run a standard EFI fuel pump and 6 small injectors to "solve" the fueling issues using upgraded turbos.

    I just set my vc2 up and noticed it can run the pump based on both boost and rpm, and since the n54 is closed-loop, couldnt one just spray fuel using normal small port injectors to solve this?

    I might miss something but it should be easy for the vc-2 to run a 50-70 psi pump instead of the 250psi one it ships with. Then one need 6small injectors, they need to be mounted in something, but one could almost tap the stock manifold to test this...

    Am I missing something obvious here? Or is this a simple cheap solution worth trying?
    sounds fesible......... give it a shot and let us know what you find out
    07 e92 335i Best run: 11.83@ 120.04 w/ 1.84 60' & 2127 DA

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    I was thinking if one could use the Coolingmist VC-2 controller to run a standard EFI fuel pump and 6 small injectors to "solve" the fueling issues using upgraded turbos.

    I just set my vc2 up and noticed it can run the pump based on both boost and rpm, and since the n54 is closed-loop, couldnt one just spray fuel using normal small port injectors to solve this?

    I might miss something but it should be easy for the vc-2 to run a 50-70 psi pump instead of the 250psi one it ships with. Then one need 6small injectors, they need to be mounted in something, but one could almost tap the stock manifold to test this...

    Am I missing something obvious here? Or is this a simple cheap solution worth trying?
    Oldbooster said he was doing something like this.. problem is using small injectors they can clog easily and if one does it will be very bad for what ever cylinder it is...
    JB4LIFE

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    Oldbooster said he was doing something like this.. problem is using small injectors they can clog easily and if one does it will be very bad for what ever cylinder it is...
    Sounds like it will work but will be a shot in the dark goodluck.
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    For me this is a bit of a hen & the egg situation, I dont feel it is worth investing in upgraded twins without a fuel upgrade, but I guess the market is deemef to small for anyone professional to look into this. I hope someone with larger than stock turbos has the courage to try something out.

    But extra fuel injection shouldnt be that hard, a bunch of ppl run meth which is basically the same with great results.

    CM has told me that using the vc-2 to try to do progressive control of an standard efi pump is a bad idea, but one could let it trigger an extra pump at the vc-2 max boost, might be enough if one can balance the size of the injectors... Though I have no clue how to calculate how much fuel one would want to add here...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by xbox_fan Click here to enlarge
    For me this is a bit of a hen & the egg situation, I dont feel it is worth investing in upgraded twins without a fuel upgrade, but I guess the market is deemef to small for anyone professional to look into this. I hope someone with larger than stock turbos has the courage to try something out.

    But extra fuel injection shouldnt be that hard, a bunch of ppl run meth which is basically the same with great results.

    CM has told me that using the vc-2 to try to do progressive control of an standard efi pump is a bad idea, but one could let it trigger an extra pump at the vc-2 max boost, might be enough if one can balance the size of the injectors... Though I have no clue how to calculate how much fuel one would want to add here...
    Terry boosted the pump a little bit but the results were not exactly what was expected that they would be on paper.

    There just simply is nothing for now, it sucks.

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    I'm seeing great AFR with the Okada plasma direct coils and RB turbos...i'm hitting 18psi and AFR is high 11s...i really think the okada coils provide more room in the stock fuel system as they provide a much more complete burn which is more efficient with the amount of fuel already being provided by the stock fuel system...

    to actually prove this I'd have to do some controlled runs on stock vs okada but at the moment no time for that, need to get my misfire issue out of the way first...for now, given what I've seen on other cars in terms of AFR, it seems very plausible
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    Mechanically what you are saying would work. The hard part seems to be getting a tune to run the extra fuel. Staged injection is used on alot of cars without issue but you need to have good control of the ecu. Plus the injectors haven't been proven to be the issue. I'd rather see a solution where you upgrade the lpfp and make an aftermarket unit work with the dme. Much safer and cleaner.

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    It's freaking ridiculous. GTR's have hit 1300 whp and we still don't have fuel fixed for the N54.

    People are still struggling with built motors on the E92 M3.

    Sometimes I want to punch a BMW engineer in the face.

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    I don't think it's because of a BMW engineer,'I don't think there is anything impossible to overcome about their ecu's. It's just what we were talking about in the GTR thread people in the BMW world are just cheap(for the most part) when it comes to aftermarket parts. Just look at the cost of the piggybacks or the host of people terrified that they may have to spend a couple hundred to upgraded lol. The truth is that the people getting 1,000+whp out of GTR's are spending 50-75k easy and there are LOTS of them. I doubt anyone is willing to spend that in a N54 let alone multiple people.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I don't think it's because of a BMW engineer,'I don't think there is anything impossible to overcome about their ecu's. It's just what we were talking about in the GTR thread people in the BMW world are just cheap(for the most part) when it comes to aftermarket parts.
    It is because of the BMW engineering and culture of their ECU tuning.

    There are about 100130810439017 billion 3 series on the road vs. GTR's.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It is because of the BMW engineering and culture of their ECU tuning.

    There are about 100130810439017 billion 3 series on the road vs. GTR's.
    Right but out of those 100130810439017 billion 3 series not 1 is willing to spend the money to attract that type of development that many GTR owners will. There are plenty of camry's on the road but little demand for aftermarket ecu's I'm sure volume isn't the problem and neither is some uncrackable codes it's just the market. Hell there are even less lambos on the road than GTR's but plenty of people willing to drop 100k+ on aftermarket $#@! so AEM now tunes them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Right but out of those 100130810439017 billion 3 series not 1 is willing to spend the money to attract that type of development that many GTR owners will. There are plenty of camry's on the road but little demand for aftermarket ecu's I'm sure volume isn't the problem and neither is some uncrackable codes it's just the market. Hell there are even less lambos on the road than GTR's but plenty of people willing to drop 100k+ on aftermarket $#@! so AEM now tunes them.
    question for you, as i dont know. but how long did it take the 2jz to be what it is?

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    IMHO We need a 7th injector setup. You could easily machine a throttle plate adapter for one as an easy way to go or better yet a manifold spacer as has been done before, etc. You'd need to tap the low pressure system and then use a normal PWM circuit to drive it.

    Option B might be to run a lot more meth. Like a direct port meth setup with 2-3 pumps and 6 M5 or M7 nozzles.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    question for you, as i dont know. but how long did it take the 2jz to be what it is?
    Honestly a 2jz isn't a fair comparison with hardly any motor as the damn thing comes with 555 injectors stock and could literally run 500whp with NO mods at all just a manual boost controller. But there were 700whp soon after and I believe trust had a 1000whp in 2000. There may have been one sooner but I'm not sure. I drove a 764whp one that belonged to a friend in 1999 so it wasn't that long. A better example would be something like the 350Z that I think came out around the same time as the N54. There are multiple 8 second VQ's and there is a 1900whp 6 second one. They are close in price too although I'm not sure how many billions there are out there.

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    thanks, just curious as to timeline. i still feel the roundel has a lot to do with the lack of aftermarket support, regardless of how many #'s of people tune these cars.

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    Honestly if I had a Maxed out N54 like you have and wanted more I'd hit up AEM and have them adapt a standalone for you. If I remember correctly you are gonna build out you engine right? Perhaps they would be interested in giving you a good deal to part of a 800whp+ N54 build. They have base maps and plug and play units for a ton of cars perhaps they'd be interested in the build. Still the whole thing would probably be 30k for everything. That's if you believe the problem is in the BMW ecu if it's just a tuning issue of the dme perhaps wait a little til the Cobb full tuner is out, alot of other makes have had good success. I'm interested in this even though I don't have an N54 because I want to take my N63 to atleast 800whp and the more people push BMW's the easier it will be for me.

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    no plans on taking it that far though. i never wanted to be the fore-runner..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    no plans on taking it that far though. i never wanted to be the fore-runner..
    +1
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    no plans on taking it that far though. i never wanted to be the fore-runner..
    Well I remember you had mentioned you were gonna be rebuilding your N54 so I assumed it was to make big power. But I know what you mean I don't want to be pioneering anything for the N63 either I just want the power I want.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Right but out of those 100130810439017 billion 3 series not 1 is willing to spend the money to attract that type of development that many GTR owners will. There are plenty of camry's on the road but little demand for aftermarket ecu's I'm sure volume isn't the problem and neither is some uncrackable codes it's just the market. Hell there are even less lambos on the road than GTR's but plenty of people willing to drop 100k+ on aftermarket $#@! so AEM now tunes them.
    If that is true why do we have so much competition among N54 tuners? The problem is the tuners can't figure it out not that nobody is trying.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    If that is true why do we have so much competition among N54 tuners? The problem is the tuners can't figure it out not that nobody is trying.
    Yeah but BMS is like $500(I think. I haven't ever looked but I think it's around that) and Vishnu is like $800-900(ditto) and people are constantly complaining about the costs of ish. That's not what's gonna attract an AEM or Haltech or Motec. Those systems are from $2.5k to $10k and those are the companies with the experience and resources to get this done asap. You think those companies are dying to jump into compete for $500 tunes? Hell AEM or Haltech certified tuners won't map an engine for that let alone sell you an ECU for that. The guy who is gonna tune my engine won't touch a car for less than $2,500 and that's after I've spent 3k on Haltech stuff. I'm sure one of them will figure it out and I bet both companies are capable of making very big power but even if they do how many people are gonna use it? That's why a big company wont get behind it. I mean don't get me wrong I'm hoping a fueling solution and everything else needed to make huge power is found asap and cheaply and easily but there seems to be a reason why many other high end brands and cars have a solution and this one doesn't and I don't buy it's because of the technical complexity of the ecu. If a big company got behind it and bogged down then I'd buy it but a company like the ones I named above haven't yet.
    Last edited by Jimefam; 07-17-2011 at 10:55 PM.

  24. #24
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Yeah but BMS is like $500(I think. I haven't ever looked but I think it's around that) and Vishnu is like $800-900(ditto) and people are constantly complaining about the costs of ish. That's not what's gonna attract an AEM or Haltech or Motec. Those systems are from $2.5k to $10k and those are the companies with the experience and resources to get this done asap. You think those companies are dying to jump into compete for $500 tunes? Hell AEM or Haltech certified tuners won't map an engine for that let alone sell you an ECU for that. The guy who is gonna tune my engine won't touch a car for less than $2,500 and that's after I've spent 3k on Haltech stuff. I'm sure one of them will figure it out and I bet both companies are capable of making very big power but even if they do how many people are gonna use it? That's why a big company wont get behind it. I mean don't get me wrong I'm hoping a fueling solution and everything else needed to make huge power is found asap and cheaply and easily but there seems to be a reason why many other high end brands and cars have a solution and this one doesn't and I don't buy it's because of the technical complexity of the ecu. If a big company got behind it and bogged down then I'd buy it but a company like the ones I named above haven't yet.
    There is WAY more than BMS and Vishnu. We are talking the entirety of the BMW aftermarket hasn't been able to do it. It just isn't simple. Not like some GTR tuner will look at an N54 and have it figure out overnight.

    The ecu isn't even the main challenge, it's the physical hardware just with direct injection itself.

    Dinan isn't a big company? Hamann? AC-Schnitzer? Nowack? G-power? None of the big Euros have cracked it which doesn't suprise me that none of the big US tuners have cracked it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    There is WAY more than BMS and Vishnu. We are talking the entirety of the BMW aftermarket hasn't been able to do it. It just isn't simple. Not like some GTR tuner will look at an N54 and have it figure out overnight.

    The ecu isn't even the main challenge, it's the physical hardware just with direct injection itself.

    Dinan isn't a big company? Hamann? AC-Schnitzer? Nowack? G-power? None of the big Euros have cracked it which doesn't suprise me that none of the big US tuners have cracked it.
    Dinan doesn't do big power. They are more than happy to sell you flash tunes for close to stock cars that provide a small boost and warranty. Same with Hamann and ACS they buy their tunes as well. G power is badass and they have made good power but I wasn't aware they had anything for the N54. Ahh yeah the DI excuse, what exactly is so difficult about DI? What is it about the DI system that has the N54 limited? The HPFP? No. The injectors? No. That's the extent of the DI difference. What about the M3? Is that held back by the DI as well? Oh wait lol. I'll say it again, to my knowledge NO big company that has experience making 1,000whp+ cars has taken a crack at the N54 because there is no money in it. Not to keep harping on the GTR's but its a car I'm alittle familiar with(Nissan guy) but there is a guy who spent like 40k GBP which is about the cost of the car here on a JUN stroked engine and upgraded gearbox. He made 1,013whp and cracked the block after 1600mls and what did he do? Sent it to japan with an order to do whatever to get the block up to par. That's why issues are surpassed quickly because there are plenty of people willing to throw money at any problem. Ask Shiv or Terry to get you a fuel solution asap regardless ofthe cost and watch how quickly you'll get a solution. But right now they'd make more money adding little improvements and selling products. It's all economics.

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