Close

Results 1 to 21 of 21
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No

    Reason #578 That 99.99% of U.S. Dynos Suck

    Spoke to a good friend of mine in TX a few days ago, John Marroquin, those of you that were into the Mustang scene in the last decade may know him. He's one hell of a drag racer, and a super nice guy. I've personally seen him slay dozens upon dozens of cars at the light, and he's also a pretty damn good wrench.

    After we caught up on personal issues I asked how his turbo 2010 Mustang GT project was going. It's your basic 2618 9.2:1 forged piston, Manley 4340 H beam rod, stock forged crank 4.6 3v with 76mm Turbo and D&D TR6060 trans tuned with aftermarket DFI. Car makes 800rw at 19psi on E85 on the dyno with $#@! (250/190cfm) 3v heads and an intake manifold befitting a truck...Pretty sporty.

    Where's the punchline?

    The same car makes 23psi on the street and needed to be retuned on the street because the dyno tune was too lean.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    2,186
    Rep Points
    2,134.5
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    another reason why I made a thread seeing if anyone has ever actually road tested their ecu "Tune" in a 1/4 or 60-130 not on a Dyno. Was regarding the M3 or other N/A cars. I dont trust if a car makes 15whp on a dyno it will on the road. Maybe different but this thread reminded me of that
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    another reason why I made a thread seeing if anyone has ever actually road tested their ecu "Tune" in a 1/4 or 60-130 not on a Dyno. Was regarding the M3 or other N/A cars. I dont trust if a car makes 15whp on a dyno it will on the road. Maybe different but this thread reminded me of that
    Could not agree more bud. Track/VBox > Dyno 7 days a week. I hope over time more people realize this and begin to put dyno numbers on the correct rung of the figurative performance measuring stick, that being low man on the totem pole.

    Love the avatar, question is what if you buy a new porsche with 7 speed manual box? LOL.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas, United States
    Posts
    3,106
    Rep Points
    1,236.6
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    13


    Yes Reputation No
    Did he use an Eddy-current load based dyne? We can actually do simulated 1/4 miles as well. According to Mustang Dynamometer, they had a methanol powered drag car run 8.21 on our mobile dyne and he ran 8.20 in real life. They have a video too.

    Our gas and diesel testing has been spot on. We tested a Cummins diesel that could only make a few PSI on a Dyno Jet. We loaded up the Eddy-current motor and got him to spool to street levels, 60+ PSI and 1175ft-lbs 632whp to go with it!

    A customer of ours ran the simulated 1/4 on our dyne at 12.68 in his new 5.0 Mustang at 110MPH. At San Antonio Dragway he ran 12.71 at 110MPH. The best I could get out of my DCI/tune only 135i on Map1 and 93 octane in 90+F weather was 12.83 at 107MPH. We are both manual tranny and were neck and neck in various street races to 140MPH. Seems pretty damn accurate so far. Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by fundahl; 07-14-2011 at 10:53 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Did he use an Eddy-current load based dyne? We can actually do simulated 1/4 miles as well. According to Mustang Dynamometer, they had a methanol powered drag car run 8.21 on our mobile dyne and he ran 8.20 in real life. They have a video too.

    Our gas and diesel testing has been spot on. We tested a Cummins diesel that could only make a few PSI on a Dyno Jet. We loaded up the Eddy-current motor and got him to spool to street levels, 60+ PSI and 1175ft-lbs 632whp to go with it!

    A customer of ours ran the simulated 1/4 on our dyne at 12.68 in his new 5.0 Mustang at 110MPH. At San Antonio Dragway he ran 12.71 at 110MPH. The best I could get out of my DCI/tune only 135i on Map1 and 93 octane in 90+F weather was 12.83 at 107MPH. We are both manual tranny and were neck and neck in various street races to 140MPH. Seems pretty damn accurate so far. Click here to enlarge
    Dyno Dynamics but again it doesn't matter as the real issue is lack of airflow.

    There are Flywheel HP/TQ calculators out there (and vice versa) that are amazingly accurate for just entering vehicle weight, 1/4 mile ET/Trap, but that doesn't automatically make them good tuning tools. 4psi is a tremendous difference that equated into A/Fs being dangerously lean on this FI example. N/A I detest dynos because there isn't a blower or turbo(s) to work harder to theoretically (as we can see from the case above not truly the case) force the same amount of air into and through the motor. I'm not sure an argument exists to validate that fans blowing 10-20mph (typical U.S. dyno) are not wholly inadequate to replicate 180mph worth of air. Stick your hand out the window at 100mph and then stick your hand in front of the dyno fan. No comparison.

    Are you weather correcting the differences between actual 1/4 mile passes and dyno 1/4 mile passes?

    John runs at San An regularly fyi, should be in the high 8s with that car, watch for it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas, United States
    Posts
    3,106
    Rep Points
    1,236.6
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    13


    Yes Reputation No
    Our simulated 1/4 is done on the dyne, not a calculator. The real world benefit is, if ambient conditions and vehicle variables stay constant, and you make a faster pass on our dyne, you will make a faster pass in real life.

    Your friend likely did not fully spool and get a true "road-load" A/F ratio because he was not on a load-based dyne. One reason I don't fully trust intertia dynes for "serious" cars.

    I agree about the Dyno fans. It is difficult to recreate actual wind pressures you would see on road, but there are some high cfm AND high fpm fans that can create quite a bit of wind pressure around the front of the car. One problem is they pull a BUNCH of amps and usually require three-phase power.

    Regardless, a load-based dyne like our can simulate "on-road" conditions pretty well and is definitely a useful tuning tool.

    Also, we do use a weather station that updates more than once a second and attaches within 3 feet of the vehicle being tested. All of our numbers are weather corrected, and no manual "fixing" of numbers. Click here to enlarge

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Our simulated 1/4 is done on the dyne, not a calculator. The real world benefit is, if ambient conditions and vehicle variables stay constant, and you make a faster pass on our dyne, you will make a faster pass in real life.

    Your friend likely did not fully spool and get a true "road-load" A/F ratio because he was not on a load-based dyne. One reason I don't fully trust intertia dynes for "serious" cars.
    Dyno Dynamics is not an inertia based dyno. ???

    Careful, you're talking about a seasoned 20 year drag racer that builds and tunes as well as drives. You're guessing that he's not going to pick up on something that simple after 50+ pulls to dial it in on the dyno?

    My question was did you correct the track ETs/Traps based on weather since your dyno does, or did you compare uncorrected real world results with corrected dyno passes?

    I agree about the Dyno fans. It is difficult to recreate actual wind pressures you would see on road, but there are some high cfm AND high fpm fans that can create quite a bit of wind pressure around the front of the car. One problem is they pull a BUNCH of amps and usually require three-phase power.
    "wind pressure around the front of the car" is real world Load. You said it yourself, it's a lot of air, and it's also going INTO the motor at speed but not on a U.S. dyno. You're talking about fans like we use, capable of blowing 180mph sustained:

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    That my friend is what an accurate dyno looks like Click here to enlarge

    Regardless, a load-based dyne like our can simulate "on-road" conditions pretty well and is definitely a useful tuning tool.
    This thread is a case in point disagree. No air = inaccurate data.

    Also, we do use a weather station that updates more than once a second and attaches within 3 feet of the vehicle being tested. All of our numbers are weather corrected, and no manual "fixing" of numbers. Click here to enlarge
    Pretty much everyone corrects dyno numbers, industry standard is SAE, I hate seeing inflated STD or DIN. Again my question was pertaining to the correction of track results and again, just because the dyno is good at calculating what the car will run in the 1/4 while stationary it still doesn't account for real world flow and load which greatly affect tuning. I'll take real load over artificial (e brake dynos) any day.
    Last edited by MHP LLC; 07-15-2011 at 12:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Corpus Christi, Texas, United States
    Posts
    3,106
    Rep Points
    1,236.6
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    13


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Nice facility! Click here to enlarge

    My mistake on thinking it was inertia only, I'm phone only right now in New Hampshire and not having at least 3G makes it a real pain in the ass to research or even use this forum.

    I'm not saying any dyne will provide exactly what on-road tuning will. But I do think ours, yours and many others are still useful tuning tools, some more useful than others.

    Our dyne doesn't correct drag passes. They physically launch on the Dyno and our vehicle weight (need weighing pads) input and Horsepower @ 50 (horsepower needed to keep the car rolling at 50mph) are used to generate proper load from the eddy-current to produce realistic rolling resistance. Parasistic loss from the rollers and components are also taken into account of course, built into the software and calculated only by this dyne, saved as it's own file for AWD and 2WD modes. Of course, variances in ambient conditions and Dyno fan(s) airflow will result in variences in the simulated 1/4mile time and et.

    Of course, the launch, shifting, fluid temps, tire size/pressure, etc are all caught as well, since you physically drag race the vehicle on the dyne.

    The weather station is just used for the WC power and torque numbers, which can come into play on the drag simulation if you calculate HP@50 for that individual vehicle session.

    I'm only 21 and just started this so I'm not claiming to be an experienced pro by any means, but I just wouldn't say our Dyno "sucks". I understand if you think it does, completely reasonable and nothing will be as "real" as on-road testing and tuning.

    You can check out some demos if you'd like: www.youtube.com/361motorsports

    We are still working on the new shop and getting some better fans but it's tricky when you are mobile.

    Thanks for your input. Click here to enlarge

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Nice facility! Click here to enlarge

    My mistake on thinking it was inertia only, I'm phone only right now in New Hampshire and not having at least 3G makes it a real pain in the ass to research or even use this forum.

    I'm not saying any dyne will provide exactly what on-road tuning will. But I do think ours, yours and many others are still useful tuning tools, some more useful than others.

    Our dyne doesn't correct drag passes. They physically launch on the Dyno and our vehicle weight (need weighing pads) input and Horsepower @ 50 (horsepower needed to keep the car rolling at 50mph) are used to generate proper load from the eddy-current to produce realistic rolling resistance. Parasistic loss from the rollers and components are also taken into account of course, built into the software and calculated only by this dyne, saved as it's own file for AWD and 2WD modes. Of course, variances in ambient conditions and Dyno fan(s) airflow will result in variences in the simulated 1/4mile time and et.

    Of course, the launch, shifting, fluid temps, tire size/pressure, etc are all caught as well, since you physically drag race the vehicle on the dyne.

    The weather station is just used for the WC power and torque numbers, which can come into play on the drag simulation if you calculate HP@50 for that individual vehicle session.

    I'm only 21 and just started this so I'm not claiming to be an experienced pro by any means, but I just wouldn't say our Dyno "sucks". I understand if you think it does, completely reasonable and nothing will be as "real" as on-road testing and tuning.

    You can check out some demos if you'd like: www.youtube.com/361motorsports

    We are still working on the new shop and getting some better fans but it's tricky when you are mobile.

    Thanks for your input. Click here to enlarge
    It's only partly mine Click here to enlarge

    I respect your opinion and drive, and wish you the best of luck in doing what you do.

    Thanks

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    2,186
    Rep Points
    2,134.5
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MHP LLC Click here to enlarge
    Love the avatar, question is what if you buy a new porsche with 7 speed manual box? LOL.
    Haha, I can always add on to the tattoo! ill be curious to see if the 991 GT3 will get a 7 speed manual or keep it Magical/Bolt Like/Perfect 6 speed

    and thanks...Ive had it for a while but just the other day I looked and thought that would be sick as my avatar!
    Last edited by DD GT3 RD; 07-15-2011 at 03:33 AM.
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    120,319
    Rep Points
    32,735.6
    Mentioned
    2133 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    328


    Yes Reputation No
    Shouldn't a good tuner know their dyno?

    Moved this to general automotive.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    in my car, MA
    Posts
    25
    Rep Points
    58.8
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    this is something you usually see when a non load dyno is used. the boost is lower on the dyno then on the road.
    Also here is a scenario, a tuner and customer go to the dyno facility. It is up to the dyno facility to know how to use their equipment.

    Eddy current dynamometers provide a load based on the characteristics of the vehicle being dynoed. One of them being weight. A lighter weight entered will make it seem like the car put out more power as the load through the eddy current brake is lower also less load = less boost. Turbo works on load....

    Maybe the actual weight of the vehicle was not used reducing load to the dyno thus reducing boost which affected power output. I have seen this many time on all load based dynos. It is operator error and not equipment error.
    2004 330i ZHP, Silver Grey, 6MT.
    330Ci ZHP Turbo Project
    www.E46Turbo330Ci.com
    WARNING: This modification is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm due to the extreme G forces once turbo kicks in.

    Click here to enlarge

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    in my car, MA
    Posts
    25
    Rep Points
    58.8
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Also let me point out that weather effect like airflow, temps, dew point, humidity, elevation mostly are for ACTUAL wheel horsepower or UNCORRECTED. when using the correction factors of DIN, SAE, STD it will use predetermined weather effects so you can compare back to back runs and track changes.

    What the fans in front of the car will do is A) allow the cars cooling system to work as designed when car is at certain loads simulating the correct outside airflow into the engine bay and B) if there is a front mount intercooler it will lessen heat soak. It will do nothing more and nothing less. The missing 4psi was not due to the fact that there was no huge fan in front of the car it was due to lower load.... if the car made X amount of power on the dyno and it was tuned for X amount of boost then that boost should be dialed in for the road. (in case the dyno operator doesn't know how to dial in load on his equipment and this very same scenario happens)
    2004 330i ZHP, Silver Grey, 6MT.
    330Ci ZHP Turbo Project
    www.E46Turbo330Ci.com
    WARNING: This modification is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm due to the extreme G forces once turbo kicks in.

    Click here to enlarge

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    877
    Rep Points
    891.7
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Reason like this is a time I like the Dynapack. We check every car on the street with damn near identical results/fueling/load points/manifold pressure after the dyno tune.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    877
    Rep Points
    891.7
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nivo Click here to enlarge
    Also let me point out that weather effect like airflow, temps, dew point, humidity, elevation mostly are for ACTUAL wheel horsepower or UNCORRECTED. when using the correction factors of DIN, SAE, STD it will use predetermined weather effects so you can compare back to back runs and track changes.

    What the fans in front of the car will do is A) allow the cars cooling system to work as designed when car is at certain loads simulating the correct outside airflow into the engine bay and B) if there is a front mount intercooler it will lessen heat soak. It will do nothing more and nothing less. The missing 4psi was not due to the fact that there was no huge fan in front of the car it was due to lower load.... if the car made X amount of power on the dyno and it was tuned for X amount of boost then that boost should be dialed in for the road. (in case the dyno operator doesn't know how to dial in load on his equipment and this very same scenario happens)
    I must get a phone call a week that a local dynojet cant load a diesel more then a few psi

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    in my car, MA
    Posts
    25
    Rep Points
    58.8
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
    I must get a phone call a week that a local dynojet cant load a diesel more then a few psi
    Hmm, down in Douglas? lol
    2004 330i ZHP, Silver Grey, 6MT.
    330Ci ZHP Turbo Project
    www.E46Turbo330Ci.com
    WARNING: This modification is known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm due to the extreme G forces once turbo kicks in.

    Click here to enlarge

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    877
    Rep Points
    891.7
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nivo Click here to enlarge
    Hmm, down in Douglas? lol
    Perhaps Click here to enlarge

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nivo Click here to enlarge
    Also let me point out that weather effect like airflow, temps, dew point, humidity, elevation mostly are for ACTUAL wheel horsepower or UNCORRECTED. when using the correction factors of DIN, SAE, STD it will use predetermined weather effects so you can compare back to back runs and track changes.

    What the fans in front of the car will do is A) allow the cars cooling system to work as designed when car is at certain loads simulating the correct outside airflow into the engine bay and B) if there is a front mount intercooler it will lessen heat soak. It will do nothing more and nothing less. The missing 4psi was not due to the fact that there was no huge fan in front of the car it was due to lower load.... if the car made X amount of power on the dyno and it was tuned for X amount of boost then that boost should be dialed in for the road. (in case the dyno operator doesn't know how to dial in load on his equipment and this very same scenario happens)
    Yes fans allow for proper cooling, but real fans (non US) allow for proper loading (so the dyno doesn't have to, as vehicle speed increases so does fan speed/load) AND real world airflow which no US dynos outside the OEMs do.

    Again you are assuming John and company don't know what they are doing, and you are wrong. If you're in the San Ant. area and would like to see it first hand drop me a line. Otherwise I stand by all statements made. Street tuning > Dyno Tuning.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    East Coast.
    Posts
    228
    Rep Points
    128.2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Dynotunig Sucks!! Best tuning? a laptop a dead empty road. At 2am and fresh tires. and gas.. lots of gas
    Click here to enlarge

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    OH
    Posts
    1,454
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terminator-N54 Click here to enlarge
    Dynotunig Sucks!! Best tuning? a laptop a dead empty road. At 2am and fresh tires. and gas.. lots of gas
    Very nice Click here to enlarge

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,426
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Curiosity peaking again, but how close/how much time does dynotuning save though? say on a loaded dyno, say mustang?

    I do agree that road tuning is the best. but what ive always done is use a dyno to mitigate risk and save time, followed up by actual track tuning. of course, not so much in this car, even though i do stick to it, but more so on my old L.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •