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  1. #76
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    I love it, now just make a clear manifold to showcase it Click here to enlarge

  2. #77
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I love it, now just make a clear manifold to showcase it Click here to enlarge
    Clear manifold is an awesome idea.

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion Click here to enlarge
    ....
    Yes but the majority of performance provided by ion sensing control in this particular motor is because the fuel is injected and timed because its injected into the combustion chamber, not the port. What you have here is the potential to knock BEFORE gasoline. Since direct injection changes the entire ballgame, you could in theory knock on a port injected methanol setup before you would knock on a direct injected gasoline setup. Also, since the head port is of a defined size, along with valve ports, and we know the engine is not starved for fuel, you're taking up air volume with water and meth volume. You aren't compressing air into the chamber so you are relying on natural induction but instead of sucking 250 cfm of air and adding appropriate fuel, you're sucking up air with fuel and water displaced within it, and then adding fuel again in the chamber. So, really, this could hurt rather than aide.


  4. #79
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Yes but the majority of performance provided by ion sensing control in this particular motor is because the fuel is injected and timed because its injected into the combustion chamber, not the port. What you have here is the potential to knock BEFORE gasoline. Since direct injection changes the entire ballgame, you could in theory knock on a port injected methanol setup before you would knock on a direct injected gasoline setup. Also, since the head port is of a defined size, along with valve ports, and we know the engine is not starved for fuel, you're taking up air volume with water and meth volume. You aren't compressing air into the chamber so you are relying on natural induction but instead of sucking 250 cfm of air and adding appropriate fuel, you're sucking up air with fuel and water displaced within it, and then adding fuel again in the chamber. So, really, this could hurt rather than aide.
    I don't understand this post, why are you bringing up direct injection and where the fuel is injected?

  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The E92 M3 has no MAF sensor.
    Yes but I don't think the E92 M3 uses an alpha-n based algorithm I think its actually a torque based algorithm like the Bosch motorsports boxes. TRM could explain more I am sure.


  6. #81
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't understand this post, why are you bringing up direct injection and where the fuel is injected?
    Are you serious?


  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Yes but I don't think the E92 M3 uses an alpha-n based algorithm I think its actually a torque based algorithm like the Bosch motorsports boxes. TRM could explain more I am sure.
    It uses a map sense and I don't think it is an alpha-n based setup just pointing out there is no MAF.

  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Are you serious?
    Yes, why are you bringing up direct injection here or are you just throwing in stuff not applicable?

  9. #84
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, why are you bringing up direct injection here or are you just throwing in stuff not applicable?
    Why would I throw stuff in here not applicable.

    I think you need a crash course. Humor me - What is knock/pre-det?


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for all the comments, guys. At the very least, it's got people talking Click here to enlarge

    Regarding the stacks themselves, this system was designed with the intent of not only incorporating the water-meth mixture into our aluminum velocity stacks, but also to one-up the aesthetic quality of our S54 stack system (with the nitrous injectors). Sure, you could rig some much easier system that would look a lot more simple and function equally well, but then where is the originality? Where's the fun in making the exact same thing that's already been done? Is doing something a bit unique and out-of-the-mold frowned upon these days? If that's so, we'd better go buy an E46, slap some CSL reps on it and call it a day.

    Previous dyno figures (when running just the stacks themselves with our tune designed for these stacks) have seen gains in the 15-20hp range. With the inclusion of the water-meth, well, we haven't put that on the dyno yet, but we will. We didn't design this system to be a maximization of dollars per horsepower, either; we designed it for a modest bump in power, a unique sound that the OEM airbox assembly can't match, and a unique aesthetic that's guaranteed to get attention. Oh, and Powerchip is definitely not doing this tune for us; it's of our own creation.

    In terms of incorporating the water-meth into an N/A system, it's all about the knock control. The E9x M3's adaptive knock control uses an advanced form that measures ionic resistance of the gap in the spark plug inside the cylinder. This system originated with the E60 M5, and when it came out it was the most advanced form of knock control this side of F1.

    While our owner/founder was taking his E60 M5 introduction class as part of his factory training, he theorized that the advanced knock control would continue to advance timing and make power, so long as the octane rating was high enough. This was the main reason behind our decision to run water-meth on the N/A S65B40 (which is based off the E60 M5's S85B50). We feel that as long as the adaptive knock control can keep pushing timing with a higher octane from the water-meth, we'll keep trying to pull power from that. In the years since that factory training, we've kept working with water-meth on N/A systems to see if his theorizing was correct, and we haven't hit any trip-ups as of now.

    Obviously, risks are inherent. We understand that.

    Also, in the event a nozzle clogs or stops functioning, BMW's adaptive knock control works on a per-cylinder basis, so it will be able to pull the timing on the affected cylinder, but will slowly ease back the other cylinders to keep the engine smooth and safe. The advantage of the ionic control in the adaptive knock system is the speed at which the system can react. So, if the system clogs or stalls, not only will the aftermarket Aquamist system pick up on the lack of flow and throw a message to the driver, but the E90 itself will also automatically pull timing before any damage is done. This is the reason why our tune will not be specifically made for water-meth, either. If it were, the timing would be constantly advanced because there would always be water-meth to supply it. That's when something could go wrong, and when timing isn't retarded, things go very very badly. It's better to leave it up to the adaptive knock control than the tune. As long as we can continue to advance timing and add power without going the forced induction route, we'll do it. Plus, FI would just take away from the beautiful sound of exposed velocity stacks.

    We're just taking advantage of this system that's already been made near-perfect by BMW to make the power we're looking for.

    It's not a system that falls into either form OR function; it actually functions, and it doesn't look like anything else out there currently. It has achieved exactly what we set out to achieve with it.
    Hi and welcome, thank you for the honesty. You have impressed me with that.
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    Click here to enlarge

  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Why would I throw stuff in here not applicable.

    I think you need a crash course. Humor me - What is knock/pre-det?
    You know this is a port injected methanol setup, right? So you are trying to make a point about knocking before fuel but just not sure why you mention the direct injection unless you are trying to juxtapose it somehow for context?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Would we be able to see these dyno figures?
    No.

    ...Of course. We've got some Spec.Miata guys doing runs (and making my eardrums bleed) on the dyno right now, but if they get off before I go home for the day, I'll run over there and search for 'em. I don't want to interrupt them, as they pay us for full use of the dyno + computer, and I'm not one to be 'that guy.'

    And just as a heads up, Dyno Dynamics dynos read low. Also, I don't recall at the moment, but I don't believe the stacks were our first modification to the E90 (the catless x-piped exhaust was), so it won't be a totally-stock-to-just-stacks comparison, but the delta-p should suffice. If you're looking for a comparison between bone stock, and bone stock + stacks, I don't know if we have that, but I'll check when I can.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    I love it, now just make a clear manifold to showcase it Click here to enlarge
    We've tossed around the idea of doing a clear window on the hood, a la Corvette, but haven't really set anything in stone (or glass, or lexan) as of yet.

  13. #88
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    lexan clarity might fog up because methanol will attack it...
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

    Other people eat shit and die.

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    Click here to enlarge

  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FluidMotorUnion Click here to enlarge

    ...Of course. We've got some Spec.Miata guys doing runs (and making my eardrums bleed) on the dyno right now, but if they get off before I go home for the day, I'll run over there and search for 'em. I don't want to interrupt them, as they pay us for full use of the dyno + computer, and I'm not one to be 'that guy.'
    I understand. I don't expect you to go throw people off the dyno just because I asked. Although, if you happen to change your mind please get it on video and say Sticky demanded dynos so everyone get the F out. I would love to see it.

    Hah, it's all good, whenever you get a chance.

  15. #90
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You know this is a port injected methanol setup, right? So you are trying to make a point about knocking before fuel but just not sure why you mention the direct injection unless you are trying to juxtapose it somehow for context?
    Ok you didn't answer so I will tell you. Knock is when you have cylinder temperatures (and thus pressure) high enough that the fuel ignites before you intend it to, inside the combustion chamber. No I didn't know this was a port injected setup.... WHAT? Obviously its port injected the nozzles are outside the chamber - do you really think I don't understand this? Sticky, I tune cars bro. Often. Ok back to the explanation of what you're missing...

    Knock requires fuel. You cannot knock an engine without fuel (but as soon as you figure out how to, patent the idea!). The reason I am saying this is silly is because with this setup you are port injecting fuel. Whether its gasoline or methanol or corn syrup, it will knock sooner than no fuel at all... agree? Because how can you knock if there is no fuel, right? The BEAUTY BEHIND DIRECT PORT INJECTION (and what you seemed to miss in the turbo M5 thread as well and why I was not "impressed" by static compression ratio + turbo pressure...) is that THERE IS NO FUEL IN THE CHAMBER.... until exactly when the ignition occurs. That is why you can run 10.5:1 compression and 20 psi - because there's nothing to knock until the piston is exactly where the manufacturer wants it in terms of degrees of crank rotation.

    Do you follow? Dear god I hope so. This is very, very basic tuning concept. A port injection car (like mine, or others) might have "timed" injection but really we are injecting, timed, at valves that open and close. As soon as the valve is open the fuel is chilling in the combustion chamber along with the turbo pressurized air and then the compression stroke mixture... high pressure, high heat, fuel present... COULD result in pre-bang.

    So now, they are saying that they are going to utilize the ion sensing systems closed loop spark control by introducing "more knock-resistant mixtures" but that's not true. The very very very very fact that they are PORT injecting fuel into a timed, direct injection system means they actually introduce the risk of knock that might not otherwise be there, even with only 93 octane direct injected gasoline vs port injected methanol.

    And clearly I understand its a port injection system (I am somewhat offended that you don't recognize that I understand this) as I hinted that they are only able to "suck" in so much volume per stroke (to the point that the cylinder is filled). The engine is not starving for more fuel - it runs perfectly fine in terms of air:fuel, and so the real benefit would be sucking in more air, not more fuel. But, instead, FMU is adding more fuel and water into an air inlet that is essentially already doing as much airflow/horsepower as it can... so they are taking up valuable volume in the airstream with a 1) incompressible fluid (water) 2) and a fuel that is not needed because the fuel that is already being injected is being injected directly at the moment of ignition and so the knock threshold is already very high.

    Understand?
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 07-01-2011 at 05:01 PM. Reason: spelling


  16. #91
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    lexan clarity might fog up because methanol will attack it...
    Duly noted!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I understand. I don't expect you to go throw people off the dyno just because I asked. Although, if you happen to change your mind please get it on video and say Sticky demanded dynos so everyone get the F out. I would love to see it.

    Hah, it's all good, whenever you get a chance.
    That would probably be the best video I've ever made (I do all the blog/photo/ad/marketing stuff for FMU). But only because I didn't shoot the video of the Gallardo exhaust we did.

  17. #92
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Ok you didn't answer so I will tell you. Knock is when you have cylinder temperatures (and thus pressure) high enough that the fuel ignites before you intend it to, inside the combustion chamber. No I didn't know this was a port injected setup.... WHAT? Obviously its port injected the nozzles are outside the chamber - do you really think I don't understand this? Sticky, I tune cars bro. Often. Ok back to the explanation of what you're missing...

    Knock requires fuel. You cannot knock an engine without fuel (but as soon as you figure out how to, patent the idea!). The reason I am saying this is silly is because with this setup you are port injecting fuel. Whether its gasoline or methanol or corn syrup, it will knock sooner than no fuel at all... agree? Because how can you knock if there is no fuel, right? The BEAUTY BEHIND DIRECT PORT INJECTION (and what you seemed to miss in the turbo M5 thread as well and why I was not "impressed" by static compression ratio + turbo pressure...) is that THERE IS NO FUEL IN THE CHAMBER.... until exactly when the ignition occurs. That is why you can run 10.5:1 compression and 20 psi - because there's nothing to knock until the piston is exactly where the manufacturer wants it in terms of degrees of crank rotation.

    Do you follow? Dear god I hope so. This is very, very basic tuning concept. A port injection car (like mine, or others) might have "timed" injection but really we are injecting, timed, at valves that open and close. As soon as the valve is open the fuel is chilling in the combustion chamber along with the turbo pressurized air and then the compression stroke mixture... high pressure, high heat, fuel present... COULD result in pre-bang.

    So now, they are saying that they are going to utilize the ion sensing systems closed loop spark control by introducing "more knock-resistant mixtures" but that's not true. The very very very very fact that they are PORT injecting fuel into a timed, direct injection system means they actually introduce the risk of knock that might not otherwise be there, even with only 93 octane direct injected gasoline vs port injected methanol.

    And clearly I understand its a port injection system (I am somewhat offended that you don't recognize that I understand this) as I hinted that they are only able to "suck" in so much volume per stroke (to the point that the cylinder is filled). The engine is not starving for more fuel - it runs perfectly fine in terms of air:fuel, and so the real benefit would be sucking in more air, not more fuel. But, instead, FMU is adding more fuel and water into an air inlet that is essentially already doing as much airflow/horsepower as it can... so they are taking up valuable volume in the airstream with a 1) incompressible fluid (water) 2) and a fuel that is not needed because the fuel that is already being injected is being injected directly at the moment of ignition and so the knock threshold is already very high.

    Understand?
    Why do you always this? You go off on tangents and take a thread into some area it doesn't need to go.

    Great, you tune and whatnot.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    So now, they are saying that they are going to utilize the ion sensing systems closed loop spark control by introducing "more knock-resistant mixtures" but that's not true. The very very very very fact that they are PORT injecting fuel into a timed, direct injection system means they actually introduce the risk of knock that might not otherwise be there, even with only 93 octane direct injected gasoline vs port injected methanol
    Maybe this is where the confusion arises. They are port injecting into a direct injection system? What do you mean? What is the direct injection system they are port injecting into? Just not really understanding what you are saying.

  18. #93
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Maybe this is where the confusion arises. They are port injecting into a direct injection system? What do you mean? What is the direct injection system they are port injecting into? Just not really understanding what you are saying.
    I apologize - I thought this motor was direct injected. For some reason I confused it with our other discussion. However, read the above and apply it to our other conversation regarding the new M5 twin turbo and you'll see why the static compression + high boost = safe, when using direct injection.

    If this motor is port injected natively then this could aide in knock deterrence. However, one would need to know how much advance the ECU is going to add - if its only a degree or two the results could be negligible given how much "space for air" is lost due to the methanol/water in the airstream.

    Apologies again.


  19. #94
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    I apologize - I thought this motor was direct injected. For some reason I confused it with our other discussion. However, read the above and apply it to our other conversation regarding the new M5 twin turbo and you'll see why the static compression + high boost = safe, when using direct injection.
    It's fine, not a big deal, but now you understand why the direct injection mentions threw me off.

    I understand direct injection gives greater margin for higher compression and boost since the time the N54 came around.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    If this motor is port injected natively then this could aide in knock deterrence. However, one would need to know how much advance the ECU is going to add - if its only a degree or two the results could be negligible given how much "space for air" is lost due to the methanol/water in the airstream.

    Apologies again.
    It's fine, we're all learning.

    And yes, this would aid in knock/detonation deterrence. The ECU will only advance so much so as to protect itself if the octane suddenly drops (meth stops). A custom tune will be able to further push this margin, like race gas only tunes already do on the S65.

    There is a minor power gain to be had here but without a proper tune it will never show what it is capable of.

  20. #95
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    This is absolutley bonkers.

    Im also pretty sure that is Mike Burroughs E36 sitting on the lift in the background in the 5th picture. Yes the same Mike of Rusty fame, it has an S54 swap working through the factory EWS and all factory wiring. I have to dig up the thread on it and post it up here.

  21. #96
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    This is absolutley bonkers.

    Im also pretty sure that is Mike Burroughs E36 sitting on the lift in the background in the 5th picture. Yes the same Mike of Rusty fame, it has an S54 swap working through the factory EWS and all factory wiring. I have to dig up the thread on it and post it up here.
    That S54 swap in incredibly well done.

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    This piece may be a work of art but I think Sticky's car is going to be a complete work of art that will actually make incredible power.
    Sorry to go off topic but Sticky... when is your car going to be finished!!!! It feels like an eternity since it first went in the shop
    2009.5 AW E90 335i ZMP - SOLD
    2013 E92 M3 6MT ZCP - Space Grey/Fox Red Click here to enlarge

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  23. #98
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CookieCrisp Click here to enlarge
    This piece may be a work of art but I think Sticky's car is going to be a complete work of art that will actually make incredible power.
    Sorry to go off topic but Sticky... when is your car going to be finished!!!! It feels like an eternity since it first went in the shop
    I'm sick of waiting man, I'm going to put my foot down and get this stuff done. I think I have been far too easy going thus far.

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    I showed that to Blaizon in an email not to long ago... He posed one question, where are the air filters?

    That being said, that's sexy as fugg and I loves it!
    We stay swingin...
    Click here to enlarge

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