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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The E46 M3 uses the manual gearbox for the SMG only that the clutch is hydraulically actuated. EXACT SAME THING. Yet, you are telling me having no clutch pedal makes it an automatic even though it is a manual gearbox? How does this make any sense?

    I'm not calling the DCT a manual. I'm calling the DCT a DCT.
    If you can get in and drop it into D its an auto... How doesnt this make sense?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    If you can get in and drop it into D its an auto... How doesnt this make sense?
    You don't "drop it in D" like an Auto but you can set your shift mode to auto or manual. How does this make any sense when it can be set to shift manually?

    It isn't an automatic. It is a dual clutch transmission. It is its own definition, simple.

    An SMG is a sequential manual, simple.

    Definition of an auto is not the lack of a clutch pedal or else F1 drivers have been racing with automatics for years. To anyone educated in the topic clearly there is more to it than just if there is a clutch pedal or not.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You don't "drop it in D" like an Auto but you can set your shift mode to auto or manual. How does this make any sense when it can be set to shift manually?

    It isn't an automatic. It is a dual clutch transmission. It is its own definition, simple.

    An SMG is a sequential manual, simple.

    Definition of an auto is not the lack of a clutch pedal or else F1 drivers have been racing with automatics for years. To anyone educated in the topic clearly there is more to it than just if there is a clutch pedal or not.
    You seem to be over reacting a bit... So ill leave it with this and you can call it whatever you like..

    If there is no other method to shift the car then its a manual tranny. Semi Manual if the clutch is done for you. If the tranny shifts on its own without any intervention from the driver its an auto. The clutch is a factor as well thus the SEMI-AUTO definition. If put into manual mode you NEED to shift into the gears but the clutch is pressed for you. SEMI-Manual or Semi-Auto.. however you wanna call it.

    The DCT tranny will shift and clutch on its own or AUTOMATICALLY. You can see why it can be called it an auto....
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    You seem to be over reacting a bit... So ill leave it with this and you can call it whatever you like..
    Not at all?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    If there is no other method to shift the car then its a manual tranny. Semi Manual if the clutch is done for you. If the tranny shifts on its own without any intervention from the driver its an auto. The clutch is a factor as well thus the SEMI-AUTO definition. If put into manual mode you NEED to shift into the gears but the clutch is pressed for you. SEMI-Manual or Semi-Auto.. however you wanna call it.
    If there is no other way to shift the car it is manual? But if there is it is auto? Why? Because some of some software? Semi-manual is not a manual. Semi-auto is not auto. Believe they are able to figure the difference between semi-auto and full auto with weapons so why can't we seem to grasp this simple difference with transmissions? We should just lump them all together?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    The DCT tranny will shift and clutch on its own or AUTOMATICALLY. You can see why it can be called it an auto....
    No, I can see how it is has automated shift modes. The C63 is an automatic. The M3 is a dual clutch. You can't refer to them as the same thing because they aren't the same thing. Two completely different transmission technologies.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not at all?



    If there is no other way to shift the car it is manual? But if there is it is auto? Why? Because some of some software? Semi-manual is not a manual. Semi-auto is not auto. Believe they are able to figure the difference between semi-auto and full auto with weapons so why can't we seem to grasp this simple difference with transmissions? We should just lump them all together?



    No, I can see how it is has automated shift modes. The C63 is an automatic. The M3 is a dual clutch. You can't refer to them as the same thing because they aren't the same thing. Two completely different transmission technologies.
    Ahhh ok, as long as your cool...

    Good point about the weapon technology. Lets use that. The M16 in 1970 was considered an automatic machine gun even though it had 3 modes. Safe, Semi and full Auto. The full auto is pull the trigger and the weapon would fire until you stopped. The DCT tranny has the same ability. You can put it into a mode where everything is done for you.

    The C63 can be put into a manual mode where you need to shift it. How it gets done internally really doesnt matter. How does having a dual clutch that you dont manaully operate differ (other than performance of course) to the manual mode of the C63? All the driver knows is I put it in M and I must shift. Same for the DCT. I dont know everything about the DCT in the M or the SMG in the M6... am I missing something?

    I see your point though as to not put it into one definition. But like the weapon if it can be done auto even though it still has 2 other modes its still called an auto.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The E46 M3 uses the manual gearbox for the SMG only that the clutch is hydraulically actuated. EXACT SAME THING. Yet, you are telling me having no clutch pedal makes it an automatic even though it is a manual gearbox? How does this make any sense?

    I'm not calling the DCT a manual. I'm calling the DCT a DCT.
    SMG, isnt that simulated manual gearbox? thats what i always thought it meant, and if so, its simulated,

    **edit- ah, sequential, either way, its still simulated Click here to enlarge and its auto as well

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    SMG, isnt that simulated manual gearbox? thats what i always thought it meant, and if so, its simulated,

    **edit- ah, sequential, either way, its still simulated Click here to enlarge and its auto as well
    Simulated would have been awesome and ended the arguement right there... Ahh well.. LOL
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Simulated would have been awesome and ended the arguement right there... Ahh well.. LOL
    lol, yeah, thats what i thought and a jolt of excitement shot through me when he brought up SMG and i thought it was simulated, it was game over, oh well, your M16/M4 example was good enough Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Good point about the weapon technology. Lets use that. The M16 in 1970 was considered an automatic machine gun even though it had 3 modes. Safe, Semi and full Auto. The full auto is pull the trigger and the weapon would fire until you stopped. The DCT tranny has the same ability. You can put it into a mode where everything is done for you.
    True, the same ability. The thing is, we differentiate those classifications with different terms, don't we? And also, different guns have different abilities based on their mechanicals, don't they? Just like different transmissions. The hardware in how they function plays into their classification.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    The C63 can be put into a manual mode where you need to shift it. How it gets done internally really doesnt matter. How does having a dual clutch that you dont manaully operate differ (other than performance of course) to the manual mode of the C63? All the driver knows is I put it in M and I must shift. Same for the DCT. I dont know everything about the DCT in the M or the SMG in the M6... am I missing something?
    How it does it internally absolutely does matter. The dual clutch you do manually operate, so I don't really see what you are saying. You shift it manually, just without a clutch pedal. You can have manual shifting without a clutch pedal, it is not dependent on a pedal. Sequentials have proven this over the years. Yes, sequentials, not automatics.

    Yes, what you are missing is that the SMG is a manual gearbox shifted sequentially. Doesn't make it an automatic because it has automated modes. Software does not change the hardware. An automatic transmission has a torque converter, like in your C63. A dual clutch has two clutches exactly as in the name. Completely different design. Calling it an automatic completely ignore this. Saying it has automated modes is fine. It also has manual modes. If it was an automatic transmission there would be no need to refer to it as a dual clutch as the internal and mechanical makeup dictates what it is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    SMG, isnt that simulated manual gearbox? thats what i always thought it meant, and if so, its simulated,

    **edit- ah, sequential, either way, its still simulated Click here to enlarge and its auto as well
    It is a sequential manual. As in, not an automatic gearbox and referring to it as such is incorrect just because it has software which automatically shifts the manual box. Calling it an automatic completely ignores what it is and is a vast, incorrect, over-simplification.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    lol, yeah, thats what i thought and a jolt of excitement shot through me when he brought up SMG and i thought it was simulated, it was game over, oh well, your M16/M4 example was good enough Click here to enlarge
    LoL. What actually happenend is the name did the opposite of support your argument. It is right there in the name sequential "manual" gearbox.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
    LoL. What actually happenend is the name did the opposite of support your argument. It is right there in the name sequential "manual" gearbox.
    And anyone familiar with these knows that...

    Wikipedia even has it right, it's simple guys:

    Besides automatics, there are also other types of automated transmissions such as continuous variable transmissions (CVTs) and semi-automatic transmissions, that free the driver from having to shift gears manually, by using the transmission's computer to change gear, if for example the driver were redlining the engine. Despite superficial similarity to other automated transmissions, automatic transmissions differ significantly in internal operation and driver's feel from semi-automatics and CVTs. An automatic uses a torque converter instead of clutch to manage the connection between the transmission gearing and the engine. In contrast, a CVT uses a belt or other torque transmission schema to allow an "infinite" number of gear ratios instead of a fixed number of gear ratios. A semi-automatic retains a clutch like a manual transmission, but controls the clutch through electrohydraulic means.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    True, the same ability. The thing is, we differentiate those classifications with different terms, don't we? And also, different guns have different abilities based on their mechanicals, don't they? Just like different transmissions. The hardware in how they function plays into their classification.



    How it does it internally absolutely does matter. The dual clutch you do manually operate, so I don't really see what you are saying. You shift it manually, just without a clutch pedal. You can have manual shifting without a clutch pedal, it is not dependent on a pedal. Sequentials have proven this over the years. Yes, sequentials, not automatics.

    Yes, what you are missing is that the SMG is a manual gearbox shifted sequentially. Doesn't make it an automatic because it has automated modes. Software does not change the hardware. An automatic transmission has a torque converter, like in your C63. A dual clutch has two clutches exactly as in the name. Completely different design. Calling it an automatic completely ignore this. Saying it has automated modes is fine. It also has manual modes. If it was an automatic transmission there would be no need to refer to it as a dual clutch as the internal and mechanical makeup dictates what it is.
    Do you press a button to engage the clutch or does it do it on its own?

    I think you are overthinking the definition of Automatic. Automatic does not refer to how it shifts mechanically. It refers to how much intervention is needed by the driver. Just like the M16A1. You can either set it to auto and pull the trigger once, or you can set it to manual and need to pull the trigger to fire each round. Soon as the weapon has the ability to shoot multiple rounds without pulling the trigger multiple times the definition of it changes to an Automatic Machine Gun even though it still retains the ability to shoot manually. I can also get into the many different ways a gun can shoot auto and manual. Those things have nothing to do with the definition of manual or automatic.

    Just because the tranny has a dual clutch doesnt mean its still not an automatic. Granted it gets it done differently but by definition it still automates a tasks that were needed by a clutch pedal or shift knob before.

    As soon as you shift the C63 into manual mode there is no difference from a DCT. You NEED to shift it or it will just sit at redline. How it gets shifted is the only difference but the driver MUST shift it making it a semi-manual because the driver still doesnt need to do one of the two tasks... engage the clutch.
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    yup, smg as a fork n everything.
    IMO track use/dig/anything fun really = 6mt.
    roll race - dct/smg
    if all things in a hypothetical race are equal except tranny....the "autos" own from a roll. just look at stickie's run against mspired.

    anyone taking offense to the automatic jokes in the vid just focus on how facking dog-ugly the 1 series (especially the 1m) is!
    atleast the e90 sedans are now bumped to silver on the podium of design FAIL. why the m3 sedan didn't get rear-end surgery is beyond me, thx bmw! ....ya lazy bastids

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Do you press a button to engage the clutch or does it do it on its own?
    It does it on its own. So when drivers in manuals do clutch-less shifting they suddenly drive automatics?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    I think you are overthinking the definition of Automatic. Automatic does not refer to how it shifts mechanically. It refers to how much intervention is needed by the driver. Just like the M16A1. You can either set it to auto and pull the trigger once, or you can set it to manual and need to pull the trigger to fire each round. Soon as the weapon has the ability to shoot multiple rounds without pulling the trigger multiple times the definition of it changes to an Automatic Machine Gun even though it still retains the ability to shoot manually. I can also get into the many different ways a gun can shoot auto and manual. Those things have nothing to do with the definition of manual or automatic.
    I think this is actually where you are mixing it up. Traditional automatics are torque converter based designs. When referring to an automatic, I refer to your transmission. Referring to a DCT as an automatic ignores that it is a dual clutch transmission and a person unaware may not realize there is a significant mechanical difference and may actually believe it in auto. Referring to a DCT as a DCT removes all doubt. If I go into a Porsche dealership and ask for an automatic 911 turbo chances are they won't point me in the direction of a PDK since that isn't an auto but a tiptronic box is.

    We are talking about what kind of gearbox the car has. You can say the DCT has automated modes but it is not an automatic. You can say it is capable of shifting automatically. None of these make it an automatic transmission. One can not simplify a DCT as an automatic or do the same with SMG for that matter.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    Just because the tranny has a dual clutch doesnt mean its still not an automatic. Granted it gets it done differently but by definition it still automates a tasks that were needed by a clutch pedal or shift knob before.
    Yes, it automates tasks. That is good, that works. It isn't an automatic with a torque converter though, it is a DCT. Saying it is an automatic once again ignores that it is a DCT and that it has nothing in common with traditional automatics. It is misleading and incorrect.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    As soon as you shift the C63 into manual mode there is no difference from a DCT. You NEED to shift it or it will just sit at redline. How it gets shifted is the only difference but the driver MUST shift it making it a semi-manual because the driver still doesnt need to do one of the two tasks... engage the clutch.
    There is no difference in the shift mode but there is a difference in the shift speed and the way the transmission shifts. When you call it an automatic you do not denote this difference. When you call it a DCT you do. So which one is more appropriate? DCT, clearly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by propain Click here to enlarge
    As soon as you shift the C63 into manual mode there is no difference from a DCT. You NEED to shift it or it will just sit at redline. How it gets shifted is the only difference but the driver MUST shift it making it a semi-manual because the driver still doesnt need to do one of the two tasks... engage the clutch.
    So the DCT is a semi-manual not an automatic. I guess we are done here.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The E46 M3 uses the manual gearbox for the SMG only that the clutch is hydraulically actuated. EXACT SAME THING. Yet, you are telling me having no clutch pedal makes it an automatic even though it is a manual gearbox? How does this make any sense?

    I'm not calling the DCT a manual. I'm calling the DCT a DCT.
    Yes, having no clutch pedal or manual shifter is what makes it an automatic.

    SMG has automated gear changing. Automation is the basis of an automatic transmission. To be manual it must have manual gear selection. Pressing a button (be it steering wheel mounted or console mounted) is triggering an automated process, not performing a manual gear selection.

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    Automatics are for pussies!!!!

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    lol at everybody agreeing, yet still arguing

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Yes, having no clutch pedal or manual shifter is what makes it an automatic.

    SMG has automated gear changing. Automation is the basis of an automatic transmission. To be manual it must have manual gear selection. Pressing a button (be it steering wheel mounted or console mounted) is triggering an automated process, not performing a manual gear selection.
    What makes an automatic or manual transmission is not simply the number of pedals. SMG by definition is manual, SEQUENTIAL MANUAL GEARBOX.

    Uh, if you don't press that button or shift that lever it won't shift. Seems manual input is required?

    An automatic gearbox is not the same thing as an SMG or DCT, sorry. Completely different things.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Obioban Click here to enlarge
    Yes, having no clutch pedal or manual shifter is what makes it an automatic.

    SMG has automated gear changing. Automation is the basis of an automatic transmission. To be manual it must have manual gear selection. Pressing a button (be it steering wheel mounted or console mounted) is triggering an automated process, not performing a manual gear selection.
    there is no clutch pedal therefor it has to automates gear changes. so yes it is an automatic using your premise.
    the real issue under the surface is not whether these types of trannys are autos or not. just like our ritalin induced friend from the video couldn't contain his purist, 1series loving thoughts about the 'auto m3'. 6mt guys always got something negative to attach to a comment about the auto tranny. is it cause it'll snap them off from a roll? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It does it on its own. So when drivers in manuals do clutch-less shifting they suddenly drive automatics?

    Tricky one.. I like it.. lol. No, Semi-Manual.

    I think this is actually where you are mixing it up. Traditional automatics are torque converter based designs. When referring to an automatic, I refer to your transmission. Referring to a DCT as an automatic ignores that it is a dual clutch transmission and a person unaware may not realize there is a significant mechanical difference and may actually believe it in auto. Referring to a DCT as a DCT removes all doubt. If I go into a Porsche dealership and ask for an automatic 911 turbo chances are they won't point me in the direction of a PDK since that isn't an auto but a tiptronic box is.

    Traditionally this is where the mixup is. There was no such thing as a DCT when the first auto's came out. They dubbed it an Auto because it automated the shifting and took out the clutch work. Now that DCT and other techs are around they dont want to use the auto term I guess because Auto as you stated now means torque converter shifting even though the word doesnt mean that at all. I agree due to the term automatic being used incorrectly the DCT is needed to communicate "This is an auto that uses clutches but still automated all the tasks"


    We are talking about what kind of gearbox the car has. You can say the DCT has automated modes but it is not an automatic. You can say it is capable of shifting automatically. None of these make it an automatic transmission. One can not simplify a DCT as an automatic or do the same with SMG for that matter.

    This is where we disagree. If it does it by itself its doing it automatically. How can you not see it that way?

    Yes, it automates tasks. That is good, that works. It isn't an automatic with a torque converter though, it is a DCT. Saying it is an automatic once again ignores that it is a DCT and that it has nothing in common with traditional automatics. It is misleading and incorrect.

    So maybe they should change the auto term all together. Lets say TCAT (Torque Coverted Auto Tran) for the C63 then and DCAT (Dual Clutch Auto Trans) for the M3.

    There is no difference in the shift mode but there is a difference in the shift speed and the way the transmission shifts. When you call it an automatic you do not denote this difference. When you call it a DCT you do. So which one is more appropriate? DCT, clearly.

    Well of course, I said performance aside. They SHOULD denote a difference. See above.
    ....
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    I got it!

    MT = Manual Trans

    AT = Auto Trans

    AM = Automated Manual


    Because what if you have a dual clutch (or triple) manual?

    Regardless, DCTs or PDKs or SMGs are just like automatics IN EFFECT, just with quicker shift times and different mechanics.


    I've always like the idea of a SMG that has a clutch pedal that you can use to over-ride the computer and for launching, burnouts, dropping for a drift, etc.

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    You guys are funny.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Automatics are for pussies!!!!
    Click here to enlarge

    Can't wait to watch this weekends F1 race with automatic transmissions.

    Those F1 drivers are such pussies.

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