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  1. #1
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    SC power difference from Intercooler on a dyno for 1 run

    I know that an intercooler will make more power due to it cooling the air, but my question is this-

    Take exact same kit, same car, same boost, but 1 has an intercooler and 1 doesnt. Stick them on a dyno and do 1 run each. How much do you think the power levels will vary if at all? I know if doing many runs in a row the intercooler will definitely start to show its advantage, helping cool everything the runs will stay stronger and the non-intercooled car will start loosing power, same on the road. So im saying 1 dyno run
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    I think it would be close. I also believe that the intercooler reduces some flow restriction as well, which might be what accounts for a mild hp bump. But as always, i could be completely wrong

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    One dyno run... so heat soak is not going to be a huge issue vs. a 2-5 gear pull.

    Intercoolers do add a lot of flow restriction which robs power, but make up for it with cooler charge.

    The answer is it depends, if you are running a small turbo on a big motor, the air will get hot very fast and the intercooler will have a more pronounced impact on performance even during a one gear pull.

    Lets say you are running a large turbo on low boost, then it will have less of an impact for a one gear pull. Remember, for a one gear pull it will not have a huge impact under these circumstances.

    Now if you are running 40 psi boost on a 1.6 liter honda revving to 9000, you will need the intercooler.

    But if you are running 6 psi from a 67mm on a ford 5.0 smallblock, for a one gear pull you wont see the same gains (in percent, proportionally) as the honda. That is why the answer is, it depends.
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    I missed the fact you were talking about superchargers.

    The same basic rule applies, if you have a big motor and small blower and you push that blower to its output limit then the intercooler gain will be pronounced.

    If you are running a medium sized blower and a medium sized engine at low boost, the intercooler may not benefit you as much.

    Remember, I am not using any numbers so the words 'medium' and 'small' will have to be defined in your own minds eye.
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    so an intercooler creates flow restriction, not decreases it?

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    Im saying on this motor, lets say with a vortech V2 or V3

    even better lets say the ESS vt1 running the same pulley as the ESS vt2
    Current:
    14 Viper TA
    Wsir - 1:28:9
    Buttonwillow C13 - 1:54:1

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so an intercooler creates flow restriction, not decreases it?

    Any additional piping, like that needed with an IC, will add some level of restriction. Likewise, the core of the IC will introduce some restriction.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Any additional piping, like that needed with an IC, will add some level of restriction. Likewise, the core of the IC will introduce some restriction.
    Yes the intercooler has a very large internal surface area.

    The equation that represents heat transfer due to convection relies heavily on exposed surface area. Thus, the internal surface area of an intercooler is very large compared to its volume. So you have a lot of surface area that induces aerodynamic DRAG. This is called SKIN FRICTION.

    Large surface areas aid heat transfer but hurt pressure drop, this is the age old problem a designer is faced when designing a heat exchanger. How to minimize flow disruption while keeping heat exchange high.

    The intercooler is a very big restriction relatively speaking, but the gains due to heat transfer and charge cooling outweigh this pressure drop in most cases.

    If you could somehow cool the air without the intercooler you would have the best of both worlds. If I was going to keep my N54, I would remove my intercooler and spray just meth at around 7 psi. Because the turbos are so damn small, the intercooler is only hurting them via the pressure drop. Since im spraying meth anyway, might as well get rid of the pressure drop.

    But I am digressing, the point is, an intercooler has its limit. what happens if your intercooler is big, what about REALLY big, what about HUGE like the size of a house. Literally, you would lose all boost pressure through that house sized intercooler. Which is why there is ultimately a limit to the size of the intercooler you should get.

    Bigger isnt always better.

    There are also efficiently designed intercoolers. Ones that DIRECT FLOW. Intercoolers with square endtanks and plenum dumps right at the core inlet are $#@!TY DESIGNS.

    You want smooth transitions into the core, this will allow the flow to diffuse properly without separating off the endtank walls causing yet more pressure drop.

    This is probably more than you wanted to hear but oh well.
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    so your saying that i would gain what by going to a simple, tubular intercooler since i spray meth? in theory of course

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    In your case you will benefit by going with a good high quality intercooler such as CPE or AR.

    Your turbos although upgraded, are still on the smallish side and will greatly benefit from an intercooler upgrade. I dont think there is 'too big' of an intercooler for the N54. The market is so saturated with cookie cutter intercooler designs that 90% of them are pretty much the same.

    You might want to stay away from the $#@!ty designs that have bad endtank designs and coarse internal welds. You especially since you have upgraded turbos and run higher boost, you will suffer greater loss with a $#@!ty intercooler design.
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    i already have the Helix of course, just asking what would happen if i went to a simple civic/ebay intercooler, thats basically a a straight tube with fins on it, since i could spray meth progressively from say 25% @ 4 psi

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Yes the intercooler has a very large internal surface area.

    The equation that represents heat transfer due to convection relies heavily on exposed surface area. Thus, the internal surface area of an intercooler is very large compared to its volume. So you have a lot of surface area that induces aerodynamic DRAG. This is called SKIN FRICTION.

    Large surface areas aid heat transfer but hurt pressure drop, this is the age old problem a designer is faced when designing a heat exchanger. How to minimize flow disruption while keeping heat exchange high.

    The intercooler is a very big restriction relatively speaking, but the gains due to heat transfer and charge cooling outweigh this pressure drop in most cases.

    If you could somehow cool the air without the intercooler you would have the best of both worlds. If I was going to keep my N54, I would remove my intercooler and spray just meth at around 7 psi. Because the turbos are so damn small, the intercooler is only hurting them via the pressure drop. Since im spraying meth anyway, might as well get rid of the pressure drop.

    But I am digressing, the point is, an intercooler has its limit. what happens if your intercooler is big, what about REALLY big, what about HUGE like the size of a house. Literally, you would lose all boost pressure through that house sized intercooler. Which is why there is ultimately a limit to the size of the intercooler you should get.

    Bigger isnt always better.

    There are also efficiently designed intercoolers. Ones that DIRECT FLOW. Intercoolers with square endtanks and plenum dumps right at the core inlet are $#@!TY DESIGNS.

    You want smooth transitions into the core, this will allow the flow to diffuse properly without separating off the endtank walls causing yet more pressure drop.

    This is probably more than you wanted to hear but oh well.
    All true and accurate information.

    Well designed, and sized for the application is definitely key as you point out. ICs always make sense on a turbo engine.

    Spraying a pipe is interesting in theory, although I've never seen it done personally in practice. How much meth would you need? Seems like you would be spraying it quite a bit no? I guess for a dyno application it could make sense, but seems hard to imagine as a driver.

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    I did a calculation and the amount of meth we currently spray is more than enough to cool the air. The only problem is, it would have spray more frequently than without the IC. The engine will be more susceptible to seeing hot air if there is an instant that the meth line gets clogged, air bubbles or whatever. There is no 'pad' for the engine to fall on if meth ssytem takes a $#@!.

    Some people think im crazy, but it's the truth. Pure liquid intercooling beats a restrictive heat exchanger.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I did a calculation and the amount of meth we currently spray is more than enough to cool the air. The only problem is, it would have spray more frequently than without the IC. The engine will be more susceptible to seeing hot air if there is an instant that the meth line gets clogged, air bubbles or whatever. There is no 'pad' for the engine to fall on if meth ssytem takes a $#@!.

    Some people think im crazy, but it's the truth. Pure liquid intercooling beats a restrictive heat exchanger.
    Yah the failure case is not real pretty, especially if you are stomping on it in the heat : )

    I don't think you're crazy, I just think it would be difficult to pull off in a somewhat practical way for anything other than a dyno or a 1/4 mile car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Yah the failure case is not real pretty, especially if you are stomping on it in the heat : )

    I don't think you're crazy, I just think it would be difficult to pull off in a somewhat practical way for anything other than a dyno or a 1/4 mile car.
    Thats probably why I still havent implemented it, it's great for 1/4 mile cars where every ounce of power matters; but a DD I will go through meth like gasoline.
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  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD Click here to enlarge
    Im saying on this motor, lets say with a vortech V2 or V3

    even better lets say the ESS vt1 running the same pulley as the ESS vt2
    The VT1 won't be able to make as much power as the VT2 even from the first pull as the SC will be generating too much heat. It will work, just not as efficiently.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The VT1 won't be able to make as much power as the VT2 even from the first pull as the SC will be generating too much heat. It will work, just not as efficiently.
    Pretty much.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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