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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    How long did it take to sort out the ecu for boost? Honestly two different motor characteristics, you don't see the s54 having 500 ft/tq at 2800rpm
    Boosted S54's have been around for a while now.

    500 pound-feet at low RPM doesn't mean much for power multiplication with revs which is where the S54 will always win and coincidentally always win the race. The N54 goes to 7000 but is falling off way before that while the S54 just keeps going and has another 1000 rpm to play with. Different characteristics but one lends itself much better to big power up top.

  2. #27
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    Hey we might hit 7600 rpm soon Click here to enlarge I'm not saying the s54 is a bad motor, just give the n54 some time that's all Click here to enlarge
    JB4LIFE

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    Hey we might hit 7600 rpm soon Click here to enlarge I'm not saying the s54 is a bad motor, just give the n54 some time that's all Click here to enlarge
    I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the N54 but it really doesn't matter how much time the N54 gets. Nothing can change its architecture or design.

  4. #29
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    Which one has been winning the engine of the year prizes many times in a row now?

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    What's funny, I just saw HPF getting raped for their subpar product for N54 in a subpar forum...

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Which one has been winning the engine of the year prizes many times in a row now?
    The S54 won best 3.0 to 4.0 liter from 2001 to 2006, the E46 M3's entire production run.

    The N54 has a 5 year run thus far, will it match the S54 in that category? I doubt it but either way doesn't change the S54 being the better power platform.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    What's funny, I just saw HPF getting raped for their subpar product for N54 in a subpar forum...
    Which N54 product? They only offer a couple things. What was the issue?

  8. #33
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    Don't want to sound biased but I agree with Sticky, S54 is an Iron cast engine and can handle much more power than N54.
    In stock form they aren't even comparable, revving to 8000 RPM >> low end torque.

    BTW S54 isn't the most awarded engine (International Engine Awards), S54 won 8 awards whereas S85 won 10.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
    BTW S54 isn't the most awarded engine (International Engine Awards), S54 won 8 awards whereas S85 won 10.
    The S85 had a comparatively short run its category, above 4.0 liter. It didn't dominate its category the way the S54 did, the S85 just picked up awards in other categories like best new motor.

    It isn't even a comparison. I don't think people even understand how good the S54 is.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge

    It isn't even a comparison. I don't think people even understand how good the S54 is.
    Yeah, some underrate S54 and say it's a new engine but just 20 HP bump over S50B32? I always tell them while they both are based on M50 but they are very different engine as they are. I really love S50, it's so alive but if you jump from M3 E46 and seat behind M3 E36 you will figure out what I'm saying.

  11. #36
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    Was it a big mistake to drop S54?
    It might not be competitive any more?

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 654 Click here to enlarge
    Was it a big mistake to drop S54?
    It might not be competitive any more?
    The S54 had to be dropped, the M50 line reached the end of its evolution and was no longer competitive in racing.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The S54 even on stock internals has hit over 700 whp at 11.5:1 compression. How's that? Come on man, over 100 hp per liter motor with an 8k redline and iron block. It is the most highly awarded BMW motor in history.

    No amount of time is ever going to do anything for the N54 vs. the S54. It is playing a never ending game of catch-up. To get the N54 to be as capable you have to basically try to turn it into an S54.

    It honestly even close, the S54 is in another league, same with the S38.
    Cool, they swapped the injectors out and ran a $#@! load of race gas and meth with a turbo that doesn't spool till 4500RPM. What was the cost of that? How much custom tuning had to be done for that to happen? How quick have the S54 M3s been getting through the 1/4 mile?

    This is like arguing that the RB26 is a superior motor vs the VQ38DETT because the RB is iron block and revs higher. I remember people $#@!ing when the R35 GTR first came out and they said it would never hit over 1000WHP because it was all aluminum. Obviously, that isn't the case, and they both have their pros and cons.


    Also, I got my first negative rep ever for posting a "rolleyes" face. Maybe somebody could argue a point instead of anonymously neg repping?
    Last edited by fundahl; 06-18-2011 at 02:49 PM.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Cool, they swapped the injectors out and ran a $#@! load of race gas and meth with a turbo that doesn't spool till 4500RPM. What was the cost of that? How much custom tuning had to be done for that to happen? How quick have the S54 M3s been getting through the 1/4 mile?
    The E46 M3 doesn't have an automatic available. Regardless, the trap speeds are all much higher along with the dynos. What is more powerful isn't even a question.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    This is like arguing that the RB26 is a superior motor vs the VQ38DETT because the RB is iron block and revs higher. I remember people $#@!ing when the R35 GTR first came out and they said it would never hit over 1000WHP because it was all aluminum. Obviously, that isn't the case, and they both have their pros and cons.
    Those are both factory turbo motors. But, the RB26 does have a higher redline and faster cars overall, right? The 38 has more displacement though. In this case the S54 has everything on the N54, displacement, redline, curve, heads, etc. There is no question the S54 is a more efficient motor. No matter what, the N54 is fighting an uphill battle. I mean the damn thing makes half the power of the S54 as of right now, what are we even talking about?

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The E46 M3 doesn't have an automatic available. Regardless, the trap speeds are all much higher along with the dynos. What is more powerful isn't even a question.



    Those are both factor turbo motors. But, the RB26 does have a higher redline and faster cars overall, right? The 38 has more displacement though. In this case the S54 has everything on the N54, displacement, redline, curve, heads, etc. There is no question the S54 is a more efficient motor. No matter what, the N54 is fighting an uphill battle. I mean the damn thing makes half the power of the S54 as of right now, what are we even talking about?

    Your talking about a motor that has 10 years to develop, the n54 has half of that... The n54 may never hit 1000hp but at 600 I bet it gets better gas mileage then the s54 Click here to enlarge but seriously give it time, let's see what proper fuel brings us, 600 hp and 600 tq from 3000 rpm would be too bad of a powerband would it?
    JB4LIFE

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I mean the damn thing makes half the power of the S54 as of right now, what are we even talking about?
    Lol you are talking about a sleeved iron block I6 with a drag turbo, stand-alone ECU, factory relatively high RPM head and tons of development time vs a stock internals, stock turbos N54 with a piggy-back tune and fueling limits that need to be worked around.

    Do you see why it's ridiculous to bash the N54 so bad?

    We haven't even seen a bigger turbo setup on it yet and we're stuck on factory injectors! I think 500+WHP/500+ft-lb on STOCK FRAME turbos, internals and STOCK injectors, full torque by 2500-3000RPM is pretty damn good! The N54 doesn't have a HUGE aftermarket like the some of the other brands.

    The N54 is fighting an uphill battle because of new technology and building an aftermarket from scratch. So what!? I'm not even saying one is better than the other, it's just ridiculous to act like it's a complete joke, which is how you portray it!
    Last edited by fundahl; 06-18-2011 at 03:10 PM.

  17. #42
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Haven't you heard? It's not a 'M' motor and thus is inferior lol
    Click here to enlarge

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mazdaspeed6 Click here to enlarge
    Your talking about a motor that has 10 years to develop, the n54 has half of that... The n54 may never hit 1000hp but at 600 I bet it gets better gas mileage then the s54 Click here to enlarge but seriously give it time, let's see what proper fuel brings us, 600 hp and 600 tq from 3000 rpm would be too bad of a powerband would it?
    You don't understand, development time for the N54 won't mean anything. IT WILL NEVER EQUAL OR SURPASS THE S54. The S54 is far too efficient to begin with. This is why boosted M motor are so much stronger per PSI of boost.

    Taza is making what, 950 whp? I mean that's insane whp and you think time will change things? It isn't a question of time, the S54 is a better power platform due to the design of the motor.

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Lol you are talking about a sleeved iron block I6 with a drag turbo, stand-alone ECU, factory relatively high RPM head and tons of development time vs a stock internals, stock turbos N54 with a piggy-back tune and fueling limits that need to be worked around.

    Do you see why it's ridiculous to bash the N54 so bad?

    We haven't even seen a bigger turbo setup on it yet and we're stuck on factory injectors! I think 500+WHP/500+ft-lb on STOCK FRAME turbos, internals and STOCK injectors, full torque by 2500-3000RPM is pretty damn good! The N54 doesn't have a HUGE aftermarket like the some of the other brands.

    The N54 is fighting an uphill battle because of new technology and building an aftermarket from scratch. So what!? I'm not even saying one is better than the other, it's just ridiculous to act like it's a complete joke, which is how you portray it!
    The N54 fueling limit is just one problem it faces. The S54 isn't running any stand alone ECU, piggyback as well.

    Nobody is bashing the N54. The N54 simply is not an S54 and never will be. A bigger turbo won't change the fact the torque falls off hard. A bigger turbo won't change the block. A bigger turbo won't change the lower redline. A bigger turbo won't change the valvetrain. A bigger turbo won't change the displacement disadvantage. Honestly, for a factory turbo motor I would have expected much bigger things by now. The S54 has made 1000 whp. The S65 is making much more power with less boost using SC's. You can't compare it with the NA M motors because they flow so well to make their WHP per liter. Uphill battle, like I said.

    The N54 has a bigger aftermarket than the S54 ever had.

    It isn't a complete joke, I respect it. What is funny is how some 335 owners call the motor the new Supra, please, that's a joke.

  20. #45
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    A bigger turbo won't change the fact the torque falls off hard.
    Ok, I can give you all that, we all have different opinions obviously, but this one statement is completely untrue.

    A different turbo setup can radically alter the torque curve, even if the VE is only 80% at 7000RPM vs 95% at 5000RPM, especially if going from tiny turbos like the stock N54 to a fairly large turbo like a twin-scroll GTX3582r. The throttle body, charge piping and head all play a role but the main bottleneck now is the turbines, they are being over-spun and are even not so efficient at max engine RPM only running stock boost, hence the taper that is built in to stock and aftermarket programming.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    Ok, I can give you all that, we all have different opinions obviously, but this one statement is completely untrue.

    A different turbo setup will radically alter the torque curve, even if the VE is only 80% at 7000RPM vs 95% at 5000RPM. The throttle body, charge piping and head all play a role but the main bottleneck now is the turbines, they are being over-spun and are even not so efficient at max engine RPM only running stock boost, hence the taper that is built in to stock and aftermarket programming.
    I should have phrased it differently as a big turbo will push the powerband more to the right. What I should have said is the cam profile won't change and the torque will still drop off hard due to the heads/cams/natural curve.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I should have phrased it differently as a big turbo will push the powerband more to the right. What I should have said is the cam profile won't change and the torque will still drop off hard due to the heads/cams/natural curve.
    The torque will drop but it would not be nearly as hard as what we have now, running turbos sized for 8psi trying to push 18.5-20! Plus, if you have the fueling to handle it, and the compressor is still within its efficient RPM, you could run a boost curve that countered that natural loss of VE.

    But yes, once the N54 gets big turbos, will we see people trying bigger throttle bodies/charge piping, ported heads, higher lift/longer duration cams, etc. It's only natural on the quest for more power. Click here to enlarge

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    The torque will drop but it would not be nearly as hard as what we have now, running turbos sized for 8psi trying to push 18.5-20! Plus, if you have the fueling to handle it, and the compressor is still within its efficient RPM, you could run a boost curve that countered that natural loss of VE.
    Not as hard but it still will. Heads, cams, they stay the same. Now, you can definitely start trying to address those weak points as well.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    But yes, once the N54 gets big turbos, will we see people trying bigger throttle bodies/charge piping, ported heads, higher lift/longer duration cams, etc. It's only natural on the quest for more power.
    Absolutely, agreed.

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge i give up, i hope unfor or mcballs or whatever he goes by doesnt let us down
    JB4LIFE

  25. #50
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    lets make a list on bottlenecks on the n54
    -turbos
    -inlet pipes
    -small 2.5 inch at its largest intercooler pipes
    -no fuel to support 500+
    -no serious turbo kit
    JB4LIFE

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