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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Time will tell. I don't have a e92 so it don't matter to me. The s54 turbo kits(hpf) didn't happen till the car stopped being made. Lol
    Good point.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 600whp S4 Click here to enlarge
    IT IS. people said you could not twin turbo a gallardo too. look where their at!
    Gallardo has tons of room in the engine bay. If the M3 was mid-engine we would already have turbo kits, like the R8.

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    What are you guys talking about???

    The S65 comes turbocharged from the factoryClick here to enlarge http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/merc...94/prices.html

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Gallardo has tons of room in the engine bay. If the M3 was mid-engine we would already have turbo kits, like the R8.
    then it wouldnt be called an m3. it would be called an m1. beep
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu Click here to enlarge
    What are you guys talking about???

    The S65 comes turbocharged from the factoryClick here to enlarge http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/merc...94/prices.html
    lol v12 twin turbo!
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    lol v12 twin turbo!

    I ran one one night in my 600 whp M3...he held 160 mph in the HOV lane for 3 straight miles, I finally passed him and when we pulled off the highway at the stop light I saw he was a man in his mid 50's with his wife. She had a look of pure horror on her face. Very bad ass car.

  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu Click here to enlarge
    I ran one one night in my 600 whp M3...he held 160 mph in the HOV lane for 3 straight miles, I finally passed him and when we pulled off the highway at the stop light I saw he was a man in his mid 50's with his wife. She had a look of pure horror on her face. Very bad ass car.
    wow held up all the way to 160!! i'm impressed in that heavy car compared to that Mbeast. Badass car, lots of money haha
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Yes, guy was nucking futs! We were blowing by cars doing 65 in the regular lanes...it was totally irresponsible of me and I swear to never do something like that again, but my ego wouldn't let me lose the race.

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    At least the car had one last kill. I'd love to see that car built back into a BEAST!

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    That car had a ton of kills, no one ever expected what she had. However this time she is going to be a low boost low to mid 400 whp stock block car.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu Click here to enlarge
    That car had a ton of kills, no one ever expected what she had. However this time she is going to be a low boost low to mid 400 whp stock block car.
    SWEEET! still gonna have a beastly M3! can't wait to see how much better/smoother it will run with new tuning!
    Burger Motorsports
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    This is all quite correct and perhaps it should be phrased differently. Is the AEM FIC not considered a standalone? When I spoke to Chris he told me they are running what is considered an AEM standalone in conjunction with the S54 DME. This point would need clarification not sure if it may be a matter of interpretation. Regardless, this was where the majority of that large cost came from, getting programming that worked for their application.
    It could be a standalone, it looks to me like an FIC.

    Right, Pectel is priced better and can handle the motor just like the MOTEC can. However, neither of these would still be street applications which is the major issue.
    Well that's not true. You CAN do a Pectel with a street application; the point is you'd have to sacrifice the dash and info-tainment functions. But find someone to do the turbo install and I can provide an electronics system for a running, drivable E92 no problem. I've already done several. They just don't have a stock dash, cruise or any I-drive anymore.

    Is it simple? No, not it in a street car. First, the hardware has not even been figured out. When there is a will, there is a way, but I don't have infinite funds to work with. To actually accomplish this it would take you a year, maybe longer. You are doing a twin turbo S85 swap for Evosport into an E92. That project is taking how long? I think you will complete it, but we are talking years of development now at considerable cost. It isn't a question of the Pectel handling the tuning, I know it can and you know it can.
    This is where I disagree - again talking only from the electronics perspective. First off, the only reason the Evosport car is taking so long is we are waiting on them. I agree that the hardware is a big part of it, but I've got a Supercharged mini in my shop right now which had got me convinced that if they can pull that packaging job off, we can do anything! Doing an S65 turbo, electronically is actually simple in the realm of things we deal with. I can setup/tune a streetable S65 in a comparable amount of time to an E46 or even an E30. That's not the issue.

    Let me be clear - all the time and money we're talking about is to keep the I-Drive screen from $#@!ing at you about all the stuff that's disconnected, keep cruise control happy and to make the gauges on the dash still work. That's it. If you don't care about those things, this is not a particularly difficult endeavor.

    This I defer to your experience on. However, I almost always find that tuning takes twice as long as my tuner tells me Click here to enlarge Sometimes... weeks longer.
    Remember, for us the majority of the work is already done. I can't post links but go to youtube and search "Apex Speed Tech BMW." That's an NA car I did last week - finished 7th at the 24 hours of Thunderhill last year on Pectel. I'm doing another one for Turner Motorsports next week. VANOS, drive by wire, sensor calibrations, crank/cam setup - all that is done. We've gained 30hp on a stock motor just with tuning and open exhaust. Even stock intake and airbox.

    All that we'd have to do for a turbo car is redo the fuel and spark tables for boost. And here's a dirty little tuner secret - turbo cars can actually be easier to tune as forced induction kills a lot of manifold resonance and gives you nice, smooth flat maps. As long as the mechanical side of the installation is sorted, the tuning itself is straightforward.

    I'm not sure which Pectel ECU's you guys carry as they have a few different models, right? I made sure to check my pricing from a dealer, you quoted the price for the base Pectel, correct? What is the pricing for the other models?

    How much is the complete setup?
    Interesting, which dealer did you check pricing with? We are the exclusive US distributor for Pectel ECUs. Anyone else quoting you pricing is buying them from us. The SQ-6 starts at $3985. A fully plug & play V8 setup that's ready to go, with harnesses, dual lambda sensors and fly by wire can be had for less than $6500 depending on options. You would not need any higher-level ECU to run the S65 - the Pectel even has internal ignition drivers that run the stock coils.

    It isn't as easy as Neel is making it sound Click here to enlarge It is really difficult and involved and I would have an electronic nightmare.
    Really, its not that hard. Can the I-Drive and stick an Alpine in the dash; we'll put a Pi Omega Digital Display in place of the stock gauges, bolt up a 6-speed and slap some Nevada plates on it. If you can live with those compromises this really is not that hard.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    You CAN do a Pectel with a street application; the point is you'd have to sacrifice the dash and info-tainment functions.
    Exactly, and this is the street aspect I was referring to.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    system for a running, drivable E92 no problem. I've already done several. They just don't have a stock dash, cruise or any I-drive anymore.
    I never use cruise, could care less about it. The real question here is working with the DCT.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    This is where I disagree - again talking only from the electronics perspective. First off, the only reason the Evosport car is taking so long is we are waiting on them. I agree that the hardware is a big part of it, but I've got a Supercharged mini in my shop right now which had got me convinced that if they can pull that packaging job off, we can do anything! Doing an S65 turbo, electronically is actually simple in the realm of things we deal with. I can setup/tune a streetable S65 in a comparable amount of time to an E46 or even an E30. That's not the issue.
    I'll take your word for it on the electronic perspective as I have no doubt you are correct. I wouldn't say you are disagreeing as you admit the hardware is taking so long. The hardware is a huge part of it and clearly it is not simple to do. If it was, what is the hold up?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    All that we'd have to do for a turbo car is redo the fuel and spark tables for boost. And here's a dirty little tuner secret - turbo cars can actually be easier to tune as forced induction kills a lot of manifold resonance and gives you nice, smooth flat maps. As long as the mechanical side of the installation is sorted, the tuning itself is straightforward.
    This is interesting and I haven't heard too much in detail about it but some tuners have said tuning for FI is easier. Glad to see support for this.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Interesting, which dealer did you check pricing with? We are the exclusive US distributor for Pectel ECUs. Anyone else quoting you pricing is buying them from us. The SQ-6 starts at $3985. A fully plug & play V8 setup that's ready to go, with harnesses, dual lambda sensors and fly by wire can be had for less than $6500 depending on options. You would not need any higher-level ECU to run the S65 - the Pectel even has internal ignition drivers that run the stock coils.
    I just searched Google for how much I could get it for. I didn't reference the source in the article as I probably should have. I didn't realize you had exclusive rights to it in the US, interesting. I have seen a few for sale I guess they would likely be second hand. Ok, so ready to go around $6500, and I said $6-7k, seems I was right on the money Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Really, its not that hard. Can the I-Drive and stick an Alpine in the dash; we'll put a Pi Omega Digital Display in place of the stock gauges, bolt up a 6-speed and slap some Nevada plates on it. If you can live with those compromises this really is not that hard.
    I think now that we have made it clear as long as one ditches the i-drive and their own dash going to an aftermarket setup this solves a lot of issues.

    The last portion is the kicker though, DCT's seem to be out of luck so it isn't a complete solution.

  14. #64
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    Don't think I'm going easy on you, either

    First of all, the Pectel ECU is going to run you $6-7k. Ouch.. but ok, let's assume that is not a road block. Well, you have a $7k piece of plastic sitting there if you don't have the programming for it. Who is going to write you all the maps and tables, codes, etc.?
    Ok, so ready to go around $6500, and I said $6-7k,
    You said $6-7k for a piece of plastic and no programming. Its billet aluminum, buddy. And that includes the base maps, though they are NA. I could probably put a boost comp table in there that will get it going pretty quick though... I ain't goin' easy on you either!

    -Neel

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    You said $6-7k for a piece of plastic and no programming. Its billet aluminum, buddy. And that includes the base maps, though they are NA. I could probably put a boost comp table in there that will get it going pretty quick though... I ain't goin' easy on you either!

    -Neel
    The housing is billet aluminum I assume but the ECU is really just a piece of silicone, a piece of plastic. Click here to enlarge

    NA basemaps aren't going to do it, you basically would have something useless if it isn't tuned for the turbo. No worries Neel, don't go easy, but what we really need an answer to is how these work with DCT's or even SMG's.

  16. #66
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    Sorry to thread hijack but I assume the Pectel would be a little over kill for a turbo M30 setup?

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    here is a place by my house i know kirk the owner very well he did a custom single turbo on my buddies pontiac g8 there is no room in the bay and he crammed a 76mm single turbo in there with great luck. 4lbs or boost 500whp

    http://www.facebook.com/vectormotorsports

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    Sorry to thread hijack but I assume the Pectel would be a little over kill for a turbo M30 setup?
    Not at all. Classic BMW in Plano, TX uses one on their S14. The Pectel is actually very popular with a wide range of cars because its the best value in the professional engine management market. By professional, I mean companies like Magneti Marelli, Motec, Mclaren Electronics and Bosch - companies who design systems for OEM racing programs and very high level professionals. The Pectel costs on average about $1500 more than the typical club market (AEM, DTA, Vi-PEC, etc) but delivers a lot more in terms of features. So we've sold over 100 of them now, to a wide variety of club people. In fact, for turbo setups its not overkill at all. It has closed-loop boost control and knock control features standard that blow the lower-end of the market out of the water - to such an extent that for many people its well worth the difference. Its the same kind of complexity in features that allow it to run an S65 & S85 that make it ideal for turbo motors. Not only can you do standard closed-loop, boost by gear and antilag style functions, but you also have very complex overboost protections. A good example is that Nobel's have poorly sized exhaust housing which make them prone to overboost. Aftermarket tuners were blowing them up left and right because even though they were fine on the dyno, they had massive overboost issues during on/of throttle at the track. We chose to put Pectel on there because we were able to manage the overboost situation effectively and run aggressive detonation control.

    So if you have a turbo motor, running a Pectel system is unlikely to be overkill as you are likely to use the features.

    -Neel

  19. #69
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    I have been saying this for a long time. GTR > M3
    Click here to enlarge

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Not at all. Classic BMW in Plano, TX uses one on their S14. The Pectel is actually very popular with a wide range of cars because its the best value in the professional engine management market. By professional, I mean companies like Magneti Marelli, Motec, Mclaren Electronics and Bosch - companies who design systems for OEM racing programs and very high level professionals. The Pectel costs on average about $1500 more than the typical club market (AEM, DTA, Vi-PEC, etc) but delivers a lot more in terms of features. So we've sold over 100 of them now, to a wide variety of club people. In fact, for turbo setups its not overkill at all. It has closed-loop boost control and knock control features standard that blow the lower-end of the market out of the water - to such an extent that for many people its well worth the difference. Its the same kind of complexity in features that allow it to run an S65 & S85 that make it ideal for turbo motors. Not only can you do standard closed-loop, boost by gear and antilag style functions, but you also have very complex overboost protections. A good example is that Nobel's have poorly sized exhaust housing which make them prone to overboost. Aftermarket tuners were blowing them up left and right because even though they were fine on the dyno, they had massive overboost issues during on/of throttle at the track. We chose to put Pectel on there because we were able to manage the overboost situation effectively and run aggressive detonation control.

    So if you have a turbo motor, running a Pectel system is unlikely to be overkill as you are likely to use the features.

    -Neel
    That's some good info. I wish I could PM you to further discuss this but I think I will be making my own thread shortly. I plan to set the bar a little bit with this engine by running E85 and piling 25+psi into it. Feel free to add any info Click here to enlarge

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    Actually keep an eye on DTA. I run a DTA S80 Pro, and the S100 will control most engines currently out. The infinitely variable valve timing motors included as the cam shaft outputs support full PWM control. However, the S100 only has 2 cam outputs right now. It will suck to make it work with all the electronic bull$#@! in new cars, but it would run it. Pectel isn't much more expensive. I think after sensors, connectors, and harness, I am about $5500 - $6500 for my ECU package. Pectel is the same/similar.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Actually keep an eye on DTA. I run a DTA S80 Pro, and the S100 will control most engines currently out. The infinitely variable valve timing motors included as the cam shaft outputs support full PWM control. However, the S100 only has 2 cam outputs right now. It will suck to make it work with all the electronic bull$#@! in new cars, but it would run it. Pectel isn't much more expensive. I think after sensors, connectors, and harness, I am about $5500 - $6500 for my ECU package. Pectel is the same/similar.
    Haven't heard of DTA so I don't know if it can handle the S65.

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    Actually keep an eye on DTA. I run a DTA S80 Pro, and the S100 will control most engines currently out. The infinitely variable valve timing motors included as the cam shaft outputs support full PWM control. However, the S100 only has 2 cam outputs right now. It will suck to make it work with all the electronic bull$#@! in new cars, but it would run it. Pectel isn't much more expensive. I think after sensors, connectors, and harness, I am about $5500 - $6500 for my ECU package. Pectel is the same/similar.
    We did look at the DTA, and actually considered being dealers last year, but then I tune an evaluation unit. Its not even in the same ballpark as Vi-PEC, not to mention Pectel. DTA's software features are not nearly at the level of the ECUs I prefer.

    You have to be very careful when comparing ECUs. Spec sheets don't cut it. A dealer that doesn't have experience with a wide variety of systems doesn't cut it. Without actually using competing ECUs and having a full understanding of their features, spec sheet shopping is like comparing a 1999 Ford Escort to a new 7 series. Just because they both have air conditioning, automatic transmissions and radios doesn't mean they are comparable.

    -Neel

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Its not even in the same ballpark as Vi-PEC, not to mention Pectel.
    What is it specifically that makes you feel this way?

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    What is it specifically that makes you feel this way?
    Lots of things. For example:

    Hardware functions:
    1. CAN comms requires adapter, RS232 on the units I used were slow.
    2. Very little input/output flexibility.
    3. Not very hardware configurable.
    4. No drive by wire or other h-bridge options.
    5. CAN datastream transmit rates are very slow.

    Software usability - very basic, makes tuning take unnecessarily long.
    1. Poor resolution in main fuel & ignition maps.
    2. Poor map manipulation functions (copy/paste/compare/etc)
    3. Inability to make user-defined layouts.
    4. Overly simplistic control strategies - you spend more time tuning to get the same results.

    Data logging - this doesn't even compare. If I had to choose, I'd say the following, but again its like answering why a Hyundai Accent A/C is different than a 7-series:
    1. Limited number of channels 32 channels? And not even BASIC stuff to diagnose/tune VANOS.
    2. 100 Hz max rate?!
    3. All channels must log at a single fixed rate?!

    I could go on but I'll stop at that. Its probably a fine ECU for those of you who have them, and I'm sure it works great. I had a conversation with vendor on Saturday who's dashes I sell often but not their ECUs. They were arguing that the fact their ECU lacked a lot of their competitors features or flexibility was irrelevant because it wasn't needed to run certain engines. My response is the same as I have to people who are considering lower end ECU's - if you can purchase something in the same price range that has better features, quality and support, why would you choose less?

    -Neel

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