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  1. #26
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    VERY informative!! Thanks!

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jchris Click here to enlarge
    VERY informative!! Thanks!
    Thank you, my pleasure.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  3. #28
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Good read once again. I consider this my 'porn' of the internet....yes looking at nekkid girls is cool, but filling my brain with stuff like this seems to be more useful. Im a gearhead at heart, so stuff like this is always good in my book.

    At my old job we had a similar issue with a Roock Racing built Boxster with a 997 S engine (gen 1) shoved in it. We dynoed with a custom built intake pipe at 407 whp....car already had supersprint headers and exhaust.

    The customer wanted to make more power...we thought of the idea of running a standalone completely but then we realized trying to get a Haltech E11V2 to do the work was like asking a baby to drive a car. We decided to piggyback the setup on the car to just control fueling and timing and leaving the cam adjusting AC idle up and cold start features up to the factory ECU. I dont know how the project turned out as I had left before it was completed.

  4. #29
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    A few clarifications

    I have utmost respect for the poster and there are a lot of good points here, but also some things I would like to clarify.

    or anyone to make a custom "one-off" twin turbo setup run properly in all situations on the E92 M3 will run roughly $250,000 - $400,000
    I don't believe it would cost that much. Its not that hard to run an S65/S85 - we are on cars 9 & 10 right now. The standalone systems we build works excellent and has a strong track record. The trouble comes when you want to interface with the stock ECU. Let's work off the assumption that we're NOT going to be able to reprogram the stock ECU (this is something I'll address later.) Using a standalone to run the S65 has been done; the problem is interfacing with the stock ECU. Here are two issues:

    1. If you do a "piggyback" where the standalone controls all engine functions but the stock ECU is there to maintain the CAN-bus, you'll have every warning in the world blaring at you from the dash message display.

    Other ECUs (including E46 M3's) have been hacked to deactivate these codes. I don't know anyone who has done this for the S65 yet.

    2. With fly-by-wire CAN bus throttles, the stock cruise control won't work, which bothers some people.

    3. Depending on the location, this might mean you don't pass smog. Some places will allow cars to pass with 1 failed OBD-II test. On Ford ECUs for example, you can simply deactivate the tests - I have a customer who smogs an 800hp turbo Mustang with no cats all the time. Too bad we don't have access to that level of the ECU in the BMWs!

    If you can live with the warnings, deal with smog issues or someone can just turn off those codes, we can do a turbo S65 kit tomorrow.

    HPF got a standalone from AEM for their setup which did not come cheap
    I don't know them personally but have been able to look at their kits. Its not a standalone; based on the case and connector I'm pretty sure its an AEM FIC. Less than $500 in hardware. The big cost for them (and not knowing what they did I can only guess from my experience) was getting a custom header connector that plugs into the stock harness and all the detail work they did - which is a lot. The FIC is not a standalone, it intercepts crank, cam and injector signals to retard timing and increase fuel with boost. They also have O2 sensor spoofing but I don't believe this works with the Bosch sensors on the E46.

    Their solution is elegant and works well. I'm sure there were a lot of development costs involved, especially when it comes to that connector and developing the ECU maps. HPF seems to do very complete and beautiful work - a lot of effort was made in documentation and making the kit easy to install. The cost of a standalone & harness to do the E92 is a lot - no doubt, and the cost to solve the stock ECU warnings issue is a lot too - but if you're lucky I'd say the electronics portion of the kit would cost $6k, if you had to develop custom CAN drivers for the dash, etc - that could be - on the high end - $20k. So that leaves $230-$380k for the rest of it. Considering we did the whole Piper M3 for less than that, I'm curious as to what that would pay for. Again, we're talking one-off so I'm assuming we're not doing development for customer kits, where documentation and production tooling, etc could add to the costs.

    We have companies that still don't even have their superchargers on the market. Are all the tables in the DME figured out? No, they aren't, there still is a lot there and if the braintrust in Europe hasn't cracked this stuff yet it sure hasn't trickled down to the tuners in the USA
    I know Steve Dinan personally and spent time working with him at his shop when he was finishing his stroker kits. They have cracked enough of the ECU code to get their kits to work. Doing something for forced induction would be a bit more - if Dinan could turn off any torque limits (which I assume they had to be able to already) and address the O2 sensor diagnostic issues, then an FIC type unit might work on the E92.

    The big question is - who HAS tried to do this? I would like to know what specifically they tried and how it failed before it is decided that it is impossible or too expensive to do.

    What about Motec?
    We are MOTEC dealers with quite extensive experience with these ECUs. You can do this motor with an M800 ECU and a DBW4 fly by wire controller. Piece of cake. The reason we use Pectel is that it has 2 drive-by-wire controllers in it already plus is a better value.

    Well, Pectel and their distributer Apex Speed Technology would have you believe it is as simple as programming your alarm clock.....if that is the case, why isn't everyone doing it
    Come on, go easy on a brotha already!

    Seriously, it IS that easy - now that we've developed it. Yes, it took us MANY hours to do, but after kit #1, the rest have been straightforward. We had one revision on controlling the throttles (we were shutting them too hard and bending linkages) and we've added/refined knock control. Thanks to a part spec change, the oil level sensor operation became a bit of a snafu but that's finally worked out. The VANOS, fly by wire, etc all work. As I said, we're on on 10th kit, and Pectel worldwide have done at least that much. There is a simple reason why everyone isn't doing it - we have marketed our kits to the pure race and swap market exclusively. No one has wanted to fund the integration with the factory electronics, so we haven't done it.

    First of all, the Pectel ECU is going to run you $6-7k. Ouch.. but ok, let's assume that is not a road block. Well, you have a $7k piece of plastic sitting there if you don't have the programming for it.
    I'm going to have to take issue with your numbers, kind sir. The ECU retails for $3985 + $490 for the fly-by-wire option. It uses all stock sensors. It uses a modified stock harness. The complete kit, where you simply connect the harness to power & ground, hook up the fuel pump solenoid and run the starter off a switch runs less than $8k including lambda and base maps. Our base maps are fully developed - 370 RWHP on a dynpak for a stock engine with stock intake, stock headers, open exhaust & 65psi base fuel pressure with a non-vacuum referenced regulator. We do add a fuel pressure sensor for a correction.

    Considering what an average tuner bills these days, let's assume they give you some kind of discount and it runs $80 per hour. Well, thing is at least another $8k alone for the tuning.
    Disagree. The hard part's done - VANOS, fly by wire, oil pump control, variable speed cooling fan control. For a turbo it would be boost control, fuel and spark maps. We typically do that in 8 hours of labor. Our rate is $95. Let's say I'm completely wrong and it takes us TWICE as long to do this as it takes us any other car - we've got a long way to go until we hit $8k.

    That is just to get the turbos running correctly with the motor let alone making sure the i-drive isn't freaking out, traction control works, vanos is fine, the DCT understands it all, launch control still works, etc. etc. That doesn't even include the dyno time. See the problem?
    Refer to my earlier comments - yes, this is a challenge and a separate one, but not insurmountable. You simply have to make the stock DME believe it is still running a stock motor or eliminate its ability to report when there are issues. As I've said, Dinan has already accomplished some of this so we know its not impossible.

    The best approach may be to use the factory ecu in combination with a stand alone or a piggyback of some sort. I just haven't seen anyone use a piggyback on the S65 and I don't know if we even have any good options in this area. Someone more experienced would have to chime in.
    Agreed 100%. But I think that the reason it hasn't been done is because no-one has tried. I'll put my money where my mouth is on this one:

    If anyone wants to do a turbo E92, we will make the following deal on electronics:

    1. Be aware of the worst case scenario may mean you have to deal with a lot of diagnostic codes, i-drive issues, loss of DTC and cruise control. But also know this goes with any car these days - these were unknowns for the E46, unknowns for Porsche 996/997's that we did and unknowns for every new project we do. But we not failed yet on any project we tried - and there have been ones much messier than this.

    2. We will donate 50% of the engine tuning time to get the engine management side of things running and not charge a dime for the SQ-6 until the engine is mapped on both a chassis dyno and the street. If it doesn't work, we will take all the electronics hardware back and restore the engine harness to stock operation.

    3. We will not charge for any of the harness design and development, just actual build hours.

    4. No SMG's. Just don't have time for it now.

    4. As my policy goes, I cannot and will not accept responsibility for any street car regulatory compliance. As far as I'm concerned, this is a prototype/concept build for off road use and the car's owner takes full responsibility for any smog compliance issue.

    Yes, I know its a ton for someone to risk. But I don't think its any more of a risk than many projects I see going on around me every day, from 1000hp Porsche 997's to Supercharged Audi R8's. Just that no one has decided to step up to this one yet.

    The final thing I want to make clear, because we DO have customers who don't care about i-drive, DTC, cruise and all the rest: If you want to do a Turbo M3 with an aftermarket Pi Omega dash, I can make your car run at least with A/C and the entertainment system right now.

    You can see my Dyno pull on The BMW Store's E92 M3 last from last Friday on our facebook page. This is a full-standalone and finished 7th at last year's 24 hours of Thunderhill. I will be able to post links once we become a supporting member next month.


    -neel

  5. #30
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    Great info Neel! I wish I had an E90 M, it would be on its way to take you up on the amazing offer.

  6. #31
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    Well I think if hpf did a kit they would make sure all that little dumb $#@! Idrive etc works. Maybe that would add some money to the build. Another thing is space for turbos. Where are they going??

  7. #32
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    sooo who's up for this? they can make a kit and is offering if you have the money and the car... btw how much is this going to run you think?
    Burger Motorsports
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  8. #33
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    Nobodys talking about the very little space for turbos. I don't think it will happen. Maybe someone with big money. I doubt anyone is going to shred there brand new car apart for something that might not even work. I mean no disrespect toward neel. I just think he's making it sound a little easier then it would be and hpf is making it seem Impossible.

  9. #34
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    Nobodys talking about the very little space for turbos. I don't think it will happen. Maybe someone with big money. I doubt anyone is going to shred there brand new car apart for something that might not even work. I mean no disrespect toward neel. I just think he's making it sound a little easier then it would be and hpf is making it seem Impossible.
    No disrespect taken, but you your doubts are mis-placed. Remember, this is what our company does. Dozens of times every year, someone rolls a very expensive new car into our shop and asks us to take it apart and potentially screw it up. Heck, probably 1/2 of the cars we work on are brand new - we service the technically high end and these kinds of people like to start fresh. Somewhere out there is a person of comfortable means who really loves their M3 and wonders what it would be like with 1.5 times the horsepower. Whether its a Nobel, Porsche 997 or brand new Ducati, these people tend to find us.

    As far as difficulty, I never said it would be easy. Most of our biggest successes start when someone rolls something that looks desperately impossible in front of us. That's what Apex Speed Technology is built on and that's what keeps our guys at the top of their game.

    Not cheap, not easy, but there are people who want it and its not impossible. Bring it on.

    -Neel

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    No disrespect taken, but you your doubts are mis-placed.
    I have seen people try to turbo the S65, I don't think his doubts are misplaced. I have no doubt it can be done, but it is extremely difficult and the space is an issue. Why is there no turbo S65?

    I'll get to the rest later as it will take some time Click here to enlarge
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    I'm just going by what I read about space. I would love to see a turbo s65. Someone needs to send you a car(sticky). I was hating or anything. Neel seems like the few who actually know
    what there talkng about. We need to get you guys a car tp perform some magic on. All my money is dumped into my hpf car.

  12. #37
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    Sticky just be the first to turbo a s65.

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    I have seen people try to turbo the S65, I don't think his doubts are misplaced. I have no doubt it can be done, but it is extremely difficult and the space is an issue. Why is there no turbo S65?
    Again, I'm not saying its not extremely difficult. But please look at the body of our work; that's what we do. Whatever the space issues are; we only deal with the electronic controls and tuning. We'll leave it to the fabrication experts to figure out where to put them.

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    I'd love to see it happen. I just don't think it will. Not doubting your shop. It's just going to take the right person to plunge into no mans land.

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    I'd love to see it happen. I just don't think it will. Not doubting your shop. It's just going to take the right person to plunge into no mans land.
    Thanks. I'd really like to find someone interested in doing a turbo S85. 25% more displacement than an S62, two more cylinders and semi-dry sump! It would be interesting to try and pull off a low-boost (5-7psi) setup with the stock 12:1 compression. We have a Suzuki Hayabusa running 13:1 and 10 psi right now; it make 330hp and drives amazing.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Sticky just be the first to turbo a s65.
    I've wanted a turbo S65 and was actually going to do it at one point until I really got a full view of what the project would entail. It isn't as easy as Neel is making it sound Click here to enlarge It is really difficult and involved and I would have an electronic nightmare.

    Neel could certainly do it and tune it for what would be a fun racecar but for a street car the approach just does not make as much sense.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  17. #42
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    Ok Neel, here we go Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I don't believe it would cost that much. Its not that hard to run an S65/S85 - we are on cars 9 & 10 right now. The standalone systems we build works excellent and has a strong track record. The trouble comes when you want to interface with the stock ECU. Let's work off the assumption that we're NOT going to be able to reprogram the stock ECU (this is something I'll address later.) Using a standalone to run the S65 has been done; the problem is interfacing with the stock ECU. Here are two issues:
    That is exactly right, the cost would not be that high if working under your assumption. However, that was stated using the HPF cost for making this a kit that would work in a street application. I think the cost to bring something like that to market would still be in this range. A custom one off that does not maintain all the electronic gadgets and does not light up the cluster with lights certainly can be done for far less but you start making sacrifices.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I don't know them personally but have been able to look at their kits. Its not a standalone; based on the case and connector I'm pretty sure its an AEM FIC. Less than $500 in hardware. The big cost for them (and not knowing what they did I can only guess from my experience) was getting a custom header connector that plugs into the stock harness and all the detail work they did - which is a lot. The FIC is not a standalone, it intercepts crank, cam and injector signals to retard timing and increase fuel with boost. They also have O2 sensor spoofing but I don't believe this works with the Bosch sensors on the E46.
    This is all quite correct and perhaps it should be phrased differently. Is the AEM FIC not considered a standalone? When I spoke to Chris he told me they are running what is considered an AEM standalone in conjunction with the S54 DME. This point would need clarification not sure if it may be a matter of interpretation. Regardless, this was where the majority of that large cost came from, getting programming that worked for their application.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I know Steve Dinan personally and spent time working with him at his shop when he was finishing his stroker kits. They have cracked enough of the ECU code to get their kits to work. Doing something for forced induction would be a bit more - if Dinan could turn off any torque limits (which I assume they had to be able to already) and address the O2 sensor diagnostic issues, then an FIC type unit might work on the E92.

    The big question is - who HAS tried to do this? I would like to know what specifically they tried and how it failed before it is decided that it is impossible or too expensive to do.
    Some of this I can't share because I gave my word I wouldn't. My word, unlike that of many in BMW tuning, I would like to think means something. I can tell you this much, that this has been attempted on a very basic scale exactly as you described, getting an FIC setup to work in conjunction with the factory ECU. Something similar to the HPF setup. It was also abandoned.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    We are MOTEC dealers with quite extensive experience with these ECUs. You can do this motor with an M800 ECU and a DBW4 fly by wire controller. Piece of cake. The reason we use Pectel is that it has 2 drive-by-wire controllers in it already plus is a better value.
    Right, Pectel is priced better and can handle the motor just like the MOTEC can. However, neither of these would still be street applications which is the major issue.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Come on, go easy on a brotha already!

    Seriously, it IS that easy - now that we've developed it. Yes, it took us MANY hours to do, but after kit #1, the rest have been straightforward. We had one revision on controlling the throttles (we were shutting them too hard and bending linkages) and we've added/refined knock control. Thanks to a part spec change, the oil level sensor operation became a bit of a snafu but that's finally worked out. The VANOS, fly by wire, etc all work. As I said, we're on on 10th kit, and Pectel worldwide have done at least that much. There is a simple reason why everyone isn't doing it - we have marketed our kits to the pure race and swap market exclusively. No one has wanted to fund the integration with the factory electronics, so we haven't done it.
    Haha Click here to enlarge Sorry Neel, I can not. Can you tune the motor? Of course. Can you get this up and running? No doubt. Is it simple? No, not it in a street car. First, the hardware has not even been figured out. When there is a will, there is a way, but I don't have infinite funds to work with. To actually accomplish this it would take you a year, maybe longer. You are doing a twin turbo S85 swap for Evosport into an E92. That project is taking how long? I think you will complete it, but we are talking years of development now at considerable cost. It isn't a question of the Pectel handling the tuning, I know it can and you know it can.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    I'm going to have to take issue with your numbers, kind sir. The ECU retails for $3985 + $490 for the fly-by-wire option. It uses all stock sensors. It uses a modified stock harness. The complete kit, where you simply connect the harness to power & ground, hook up the fuel pump solenoid and run the starter off a switch runs less than $8k including lambda and base maps. Our base maps are fully developed - 370 RWHP on a dynpak for a stock engine with stock intake, stock headers, open exhaust & 65psi base fuel pressure with a non-vacuum referenced regulator. We do add a fuel pressure sensor for a correction.
    I'm not sure which Pectel ECU's you guys carry as they have a few different models, right? I made sure to check my pricing from a dealer, you quoted the price for the base Pectel, correct? What is the pricing for the other models?

    How much is the complete setup?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Disagree. The hard part's done - VANOS, fly by wire, oil pump control, variable speed cooling fan control. For a turbo it would be boost control, fuel and spark maps. We typically do that in 8 hours of labor. Our rate is $95. Let's say I'm completely wrong and it takes us TWICE as long to do this as it takes us any other car - we've got a long way to go until we hit $8k.
    This I defer to your experience on. However, I almost always find that tuning takes twice as long as my tuner tells me Click here to enlarge Sometimes... weeks longer. Dyno time is expensive, so you are billing labor plus dyno hours. So let's say 16 hours, we are at 1600, plus the same for the dyno time, 1600, so we are at $3200. Much less than $8k, quite correct. That is all assuming a turbo S65 setup could really be done in that time which I will certainly take your word for.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Refer to my earlier comments - yes, this is a challenge and a separate one, but not insurmountable. You simply have to make the stock DME believe it is still running a stock motor or eliminate its ability to report when there are issues. As I've said, Dinan has already accomplished some of this so we know its not impossible.
    Dinan doesn't have complete control of the ECU, no one does at this time. Dinan I don't believe is a good example as they have not demonstrated any forced induction application on the S65. I think you are correct in having enough control to work with the stock DME being the key. I just don't know if we are there yet, it took a long time for the S54 to get to that point. I know it can be done as you are stating, and yes, it is a separate issue, but I don't believe proof exists to substantiate this. If there was, I might be getting turbos right now.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Apex Speed Technology Click here to enlarge
    Agreed 100%. But I think that the reason it hasn't been done is because no-one has tried. I'll put my money where my mouth is on this one:

    If anyone wants to do a turbo E92, we will make the following deal on electronics:

    1. Be aware of the worst case scenario may mean you have to deal with a lot of diagnostic codes, i-drive issues, loss of DTC and cruise control. But also know this goes with any car these days - these were unknowns for the E46, unknowns for Porsche 996/997's that we did and unknowns for every new project we do. But we not failed yet on any project we tried - and there have been ones much messier than this.

    2. We will donate 50% of the engine tuning time to get the engine management side of things running and not charge a dime for the SQ-6 until the engine is mapped on both a chassis dyno and the street. If it doesn't work, we will take all the electronics hardware back and restore the engine harness to stock operation.

    3. We will not charge for any of the harness design and development, just actual build hours.

    4. No SMG's. Just don't have time for it now.
    You had me ready to sign up until number 4 (two number 4's, but I understand just a typo Click here to enlarge I make them all the time) because my car is DCT. I'm not sure if you are familiar with my vehicle or what I have been doing, but take a look at this when you get a chance: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-BMW-DCT-Build
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  18. #43
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    Hm so there was a way for me to drop an N54 into the E28..its just gonna cost me 4k to do so Click here to enlarge

    I think I will just stick with a boosted M30. As much as I would like to do an N54 swap there just isnt any funds like that to do so. Looking at LEAST 10-20k.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    Hm so there was a way for me to drop an N54 into the E28..its just gonna cost me 4k to do so Click here to enlarge

    I think I will just stick with a boosted M30. As much as I would like to do an N54 swap there just isnt any funds like that to do so. Looking at LEAST 10-20k.
    It makes absolutely no sense to drop an N54 into an E28, none. You would be way better off with several other motors, S38, S52, M50, M52, S50, hell, I would even argue S54 before N54. S62 even maybe...
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Someone do it.... Turbo is the way to go. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    It makes absolutely no sense to drop an N54 into an E28, none. You would be way better off with several other motors, S38, S52, M50, M52, S50, hell, I would even argue S54 before N54. S62 even maybe...

    I am tempted to run the M30 with a lot of boost on E85....but we will see.

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    IT would be cost max of 20k to do a custom turbo kit on a e92. you can get a standalone that will work with any engine for as little as $1500 to as high as 8K there are so manny option to turboing a e92 m3 you could easily relocate and delete half the crap in the engine bay and do twin top mounts. or you could do a single rear mounted set up.

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    Yeah it's that easy.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    Yeah it's that easy.

    IT IS. people said you could not twin turbo a gallardo too. look where their at!

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    Time will tell. I don't have a e92 so it don't matter to me. The s54 turbo kits(hpf) didn't happen till the car stopped being made. Lol

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