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  1. #1
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    6 Mt vs Dct trap times

    So huge debate lately and i like to find out why a 6-mt bolt on m can run similar times i am not saying the best or glory numbers and still have similar times like a dct. But when you sc why can't the 6 mt break 120 mph traps and dct are running 123+?
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    what do you mean? im sure you have pics of factual evedince of what your describing dont you?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
    So huge debate lately and i like to find out why a 6-mt bolt on m can run similar times i am not saying the best or glory numbers and still have similar times like a dct. But when you sc why can't the 6 mt break 120 mph traps and dct are running 123+?
    I know what you are referring to and I was planning on putting my own article up anyway to refute that insanity but I'll help you out here.

    At least you know what Gintani people feel like having to constantly deal with keyboard racing by a couple idiots who want to feel better about their purchase and how nothing else can possibly be any good.

    The manual is actually geared better past the 1/4 mile. Why is it that in stock form you don't see a 5+ mph difference or much of any difference in trap speed? Well, in actuality, the manual is capable of higher traps since past the 1/8 mile it spends more time in gear and doesn't even really have to shift into 4th to cross the traps while the DCT is crossing in 4th and has to spend more time in 4th where it has less torque at the axle or gear multiplication.

    Here, let me illustrate:

    BMW M3 DCT
    Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
    1st 4.780 44
    2nd 2.933 71 5200
    3rd 2.153 97 6200
    4th 1.678 124 6500
    5th 1.390 150 6900
    6th 1.203 173 7300
    7th 1.000 208 7000
    Final Ratio 3.154


    BMW M3 6-speed
    Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
    1st 4.055 44
    2nd 2.396 75 4900
    3rd 1.582 113 5600
    4th 1.192 150 6300
    5th 1.000 179 7000
    6th 0.872 205 7300
    Final Drive 3.85

    So, the manual actually has to shift less and past the 1/8 mph has greater gear multiplication at those speeds. When no shifting is taking place, DCT has no advantage. Actually, the manual has lower drivetrain losses so crank HP being equal the manual will put out slightly more whp (2% penalty). The car will accelerate faster at 100 mph in 3rd vs. the DCT having to be in 4th.

    To reach 130 let's say, the manual can be in 4th while the DCT has to shift into 5th.

    The DCT will usually get a better ET due to shift speed and consistency. MPH though won't vary much between equal cars but there is no disputing the fact the manual is geared better for runs past the 1/8 mile, as in, trap speed.

    When I went to shorter gearing, I cost myself some MPH. DCT shift speed can't overcome gearing. Where the DCT will always excel is in the 1/8. I am planning on going to longer gearing to put the reverse to the test.

    No matter what though, the DCT won't be giving you a difference of 5+ MPH, that's insane. A manual driver would have to be absolutely horrible or intentionally trying to skew the time. Does DCT shifter faster? Yes. Will it get a quicker ET? Yes. Is it faster in gear? Not after 2nd and 3rd gear.

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    so you mean that something else is causing this other than just the transmission used?

    ESS VT600-Manual

    Dyno:Click here to enlarge

    Slip: Click here to enlarge


    ESS VT-600 Manual
    Dyno Click here to enlarge
    Slip Click here to enlarge



    AA Stg2 w/meth DCT
    Dyno Click here to enlarge
    Slip Click here to enlarge


    here is the first run posted. track and time available this is the correction for a NEGATIVE DA

    Click here to enlarge

    now the other Manual M3- time is not known so i picked the absloute worst time of the day, about 453pm

    Click here to enlarge

    the DCT AA M3- time also unknown, so used worst DA time, about 3:23 pm
    Click here to enlarge

    and there you have a swing of about 2500'
    and about 1mph variance from actual time, be it FI or NA

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so you mean that something else is causing this other than just the transmission used?
    Yes, there could be several other explanations but the transmission is not the issue.

    Sammy ran 123 with a DCT at the track, Niterider ran 122.7 with a manual with basically the same setup on street tires (both Gintani Stage 1 SC, both similar traps with difference transmissions):

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Niterider
    Nice traps bro , I know what u mean about traction, I ran with my stock ps2 19s when I went and spun for almost the whole 1/4 mile. lol ur times are very similar to mine. Good to see the Gintani SC kit is consistant on power. I beleive I trapped 122.7mph and my fastest time was 12.21 But once u go SC its really more about the trap speed, thats what really shows the car is moving. Stickys car should be trapping 130+ very soon
    Gentlemen, 5 mph difference is freaking HUGE.

  6. #6
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so you mean that something else is causing this other than just the transmission used?
    Whoops, sorry, seems his best was 124 mph so he actually out trapped the DCT with the Stage I:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Niterider
    Well ive ran the 1/8th mile most because its close to my house. My cars best their is 7.8 @ 95mph. on the 1/4 mile my cars best was 12.1 @ 124mph and both runs are 2.something 60 fts. which suck. I spin 1st-3rd gear cause I run on my street tires which doesnt help at all. This car is easy a mid 11 sec. car if u look at my trap speeds. Im sure with the right set up and better driver it should b in mid to low 11s. Raise the boost and im in 10s for sure.

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    So 124 with an inexperienced driver on the strip out trapping a DCT? How's that possible if DCT is good for over 5 mph Click here to enlarge

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    well,, id like to see the dyno's and slips of those 2 cars if possible.. that would make it even harder to explain the difference we are seeing over here

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    well,, id like to see the dyno's and slips of those 2 cars if possible.. that would make it even harder to explain the difference we are seeing over here
    I'm sick of working already, but fine, I'll get you the dynos later.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    well,, id like to see the dyno's and slips of those 2 cars if possible.. that would make it even harder to explain the difference we are seeing over here
    Here:

    Stage I manual Gintani SC dynojet:

    Click here to enlarge

    You'll have to ask DD GT3 RD for his Stage I DCT M3 dyno, the links to it are dead.

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    well, those are good, but would neeed to see a before dyno as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    well, those are good, but would neeed to see a before dyno as well.
    Leave me alone.

    Heh, you are asking me to dig through ancient stuff.

    Here, dyno dynamics though:

    Click here to enlarge

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    lol Lm ...thanks alot of your insight sticky... i deff agree with you that dct is faster is shifting. never knew that the gearing for the manual is better. So your saying that a guy with dct runs some 124 trap even with the worst manual driver he should be in a varience of 1-2 mphs or so? or maybe a little more.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    Im DCT and ran a 6MT with alooot more power, and the results were shocking....I'll be posting a thread about it later on !

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    dude are you sure about the gear ratios?
    in top gear with equal condition at 100 Km/h, DCT car sits around 110 rpm lower than manual, i observed it many many times, doesn't seem right.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
    Im DCT and ran a 6MT with alooot more power, and the results were shocking....I'll be posting a thread about it later on !
    yes in a race dct has advantage but i am talking about at the strip.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
    yes in a race dct has advantage but i am talking about at the strip.
    the shift speed advantage will always be present though. but its not a 6+mph advantage

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    the shift speed advantage will always be present though. but its not a 6+mph advantage
    i agree as well that it can't be 6+
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    DCT has many advantages. I didn't know that the Drivetrain loss was greater with DCT so that is a negative it has. Otherwise, it is superior in every way, maybe besides strength and cost of modding.

    One of the big advantages of DCT on an FI car that some people here haven't brought up yet is that there is no loss in boost. When you shift a manual car, you lose boost and when the car engages the next gear, the boost turns back on. On a supercharger the boost is almost instant but it's not a 100% on and off. There is still a little hesitation. With DCT the car is ALWAYS in boost under WOT.

    So besides the obvious advantages of DCT (instant shift times, consistency, no lack of traction between shifts, linear G forces), on an FI car you have to also take into account the fact that it will hold boost all the way through the run with no interuptions at all. (I may not be 100% because I don't have actual evidence on this with the E9x with superchargers but I have seen this happen on similiar setup cars, hopefully someone with datalogs can confirm this?)
    his: _______________ hers: Mitsubishi Evolution X
    gone: R35 GT-R,
    C6 Z06, V2 CTS-V, E60 M5 SMG, CLK500

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ItalianStallion Click here to enlarge
    DCT has many advantages. I didn't know that the Drivetrain loss was greater with DCT so that is a negative it has. Otherwise, it is superior in every way, maybe besides strength and cost of modding.

    One of the big advantages of DCT on an FI car that some people here haven't brought up yet is that there is no loss in boost. When you shift a manual car, you lose boost and when the car engages the next gear, the boost turns back on. On a supercharger the boost is almost instant but it's not a 100% on and off. There is still a little hesitation. With DCT the car is ALWAYS in boost under WOT.

    So besides the obvious advantages of DCT (instant shift times, consistency, no lack of traction between shifts, linear G forces), on an FI car you have to also take into account the fact that it will hold boost all the way through the run with no interuptions at all. (I may not be 100% because I don't have actual evidence on this with the E9x with superchargers but I have seen this happen on similiar setup cars, hopefully someone with datalogs can confirm this?)
    so, as an infoemed and experienced enthusiast, do you think given the pro's and cons, that it is a 6+mph advantage? i mean, your GTR has a ddct, or its equivilent yes, have you experienced a that you can run with 60-70hp stronger cars based merely on transmission alone?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so, as an infoemed and experienced enthusiast, do you think given the pro's and cons, that it is a 6+mph advantage? i mean, your GTR has a ddct, or its equivilent yes, have you experienced a that you can run with 60-70hp stronger cars based merely on transmission alone?
    Long story short....

    6mph traps? No because that is a HUGE gap.

    But can a DCT car keep up with a 60hp+ stronger car? Absolutely. I have seen it in person.
    his: _______________ hers: Mitsubishi Evolution X
    gone: R35 GT-R,
    C6 Z06, V2 CTS-V, E60 M5 SMG, CLK500

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    so i guess what some are claiming, is that a manual S/C'd m3 is only as fast as a bolt-on DCT m3.. well, that sucks for the manual guys

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    so i guess what some are claiming, is that a manual S/C'd m3 is only as fast as a bolt-on DCT m3.. well, that sucks for the manual guys
    As speeds climb, the DCT advantage goes away. But yeah more or less...
    his: _______________ hers: Mitsubishi Evolution X
    gone: R35 GT-R,
    C6 Z06, V2 CTS-V, E60 M5 SMG, CLK500

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    thanks for the input Lm and ItalianStallion.
    F10 M5 : ??????
    E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires, Stock Interior,DSC on

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by akh23456 Click here to enlarge
    lol Lm ...thanks alot of your insight sticky... i deff agree with you that dct is faster is shifting. never knew that the gearing for the manual is better. So your saying that a guy with dct runs some 124 trap even with the worst manual driver he should be in a varience of 1-2 mphs or so? or maybe a little more.
    I'm saying the trap shouldn't vary all that much. A poor driver in a manual can mask it's potential more than a poor driver in a DCT as he will still shift the same no matter what. The manual has the capability to trap very well, as stock 1/4 mile runs between cars show.

    I believe a manual has the record for stock at 115 mph.

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