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Thread: DREWS VT2-625 DYNO AND METH DISCUSSION

              
   
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    DREWS VT2-625 DYNO AND METH DISCUSSION

    http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531410


    Also, just for the sake of it - sticky look at the differences in his numbers with and without meth. All the $#@!ing you did on the other threads saying his car is "special" because it has meth and saying meth makes a huge difference on his car is complete bull$#@! EXACTLY like I have been trying to say. BECAUSE THE CAR IS NOT TUNED FOR IT, THE METH WILL GIVE HIM GENERALLY AROUND AN AVERAGE OF 20WHP (in his case it was between 20-30whp exactly) BECAUSE ALL IT IS BEING USED FOR IS TO COOL IATS (SLIGHT INCREASE IN TIMING) AND HE DOES NOT RAISE BOOST (this is what both AA kits and Drew's do, as opposed to Gintani).....but I was of course wrong the entire time..

    This guy on that forum actually summed it up perfectly,

    "
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR Click here to enlarge
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    Great #'s Drew!!!! Very Impressive for only 7.15 PSI!!!!

    Please answer a question for me...... Is your file with and without meth basically the same??? If this is the case that is a very smart way to use meth!!!! If you don't need meth because the tune is safe without it (in the event there is a hiccup with meth delivery there is no damage and no issue) you still get to take advantage of cooler combustion temperatures and therefore will get a bit of extra timing before the ECM detects knock when you are running meth.

    Is the above assumption about your tune correct???
    "


    Anyways, enjoy the numbers, GREAT numbers as always
    Last edited by ERM324; 05-16-2011 at 02:16 PM.

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    OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW BELOW: Drew is a friend of mine so I mean no ill will but just a few points I noticed when reviewing the data.

    From the logs - and being a tuner myself (Japanese cars) the car is pulling heavy timing on the dyno up top pull after pull even on the 95 octane mix (these car peak timing max at/towards redline.) As you notice it is pulling up top almost 6-10 degrees between the highest meth / pump value. The first cold pass on 95oct was fine when it wasn't heatsoaked. On the meth mix the ignition curve is much different also and happier steady incline everywhere pull after pull.

    Where the timing is being pulled, the pump gas curve starts to die off and flatten out in high rpms. Regardless of how it is "tuned" If I were a betting man I'd have the meth on 24/7 by those logs. In my humble opinion - If the tune was "conservative" there wouldn't be a 6-10 (if you match same rpm on each) degree swing up top on the same tune.

    BUT: When reviewing the data one must consider - Could also be a lack of airflow in the dyno room or excess coolant temp correction / compensation? - but I'd like to see BT logs of the timing advance and knock correction KR on the higher rpms of the 95oct runs. I'm sure Robert has them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
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    Also, just for the sake of it - sticky look at the differences in his numbers with and without meth. All the $#@!ing you did on the other threads saying his car is "special" because it has meth and saying meth makes a huge difference on his car is complete bull$#@! EXACTLY like I have been trying to say. BECAUSE THE CAR IS NOT TUNED FOR IT, THE METH WILL GIVE HIM GENERALLY AROUND AN AVERAGE OF 20WHP (in his case it was between 20-30whp exactly) BECAUSE ALL IT IS BEING USED FOR IS TO COOL IATS (SLIGHT INCREASE IN TIMING) AND HE DOES NOT RAISE BOOST (this is what both AA kits and Drew's do, as opposed to Gintani).....but I was of course wrong the entire time..
    What's with the caps? What exactly are you yelling about?

    With just charge cooling in STD correction meth gives him 30 whp peak. Uh, 30 whp is almost 3 mph in the 1/4 mile, don't you get it? That is pretty huge.

    Saying the car isn't tuned for it, well, I think there might be a little of that going on with 30 whp gains. ESS is using this car to market and he has a flash loader with different files. Clearly the car has a race file so they are taking better detonation resistance into account a bit so the meth is sort of being tuned for. To what extent who knows but good for you to see that what I have been saying about adding meth to both kits get them in about the same spot.

    Also, please stop linking to M3post and post details here instead, thanks.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    On the meth mix the ignition curve is much different also and happier steady incline everywhere pull after pull.

    Where the timing is being pulled, the pump gas curve starts to die off and flatten out in high rpms. Regardless of how it is "tuned" If I were a betting man I'd have the meth on 24/7 by those logs. In my humble opinion - If the tune was "conservative" there wouldn't be a 6-10 (if you match same rpm on each) degree swing up top on the same tune.
    Exactly correct but compared to other dynos that are independent we don't see this swing. Now, if one was trying to set peak figures just on the dyno, would't there be an aggressive swing up top toward redline?

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    I'd say to me the main difference is the Octane level that these 2 kits has to be ran on, and is what made the difference to me.
    VT625 kit was ran on 95Octane at 7.15 psi I think that is pretty high on octane?
    the Gintani Stage 2+ is ran 91 Octane + meth. I think its the same boost?! but not meth tuned? I'm not 100% sure but that is what I feel that is making the big difference.
    correct me if I'm wrong! I think both kits are pretty much the same deal if you ask me
    Current: 964 WB, 993, Panamera Turbo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by EUGENE-Taiwan Click here to enlarge
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    I think both kits are pretty much the same deal if you ask me
    You're absolutely right. This ridiculous BS being spread around about efficiency and blah blah blah is useless. Anyone who knows these cars and has experience with the vortech setups on them understands the boost, octane, meth, etc., are the main variables.

    The blowers used are slightly different.

    This should mainly show everyone what an advantage the Gintani kits running on meth had for so long. No surprise Roman wouldn't let any of his customers race them, lol. There is a reason why there were two cars over 130 mph in the 1/4 mile on boost alone and ESS still does not have one in what, 2011 now?

    You run the same boost on the same style of blower with the same octane you are going to produce similar results. Things change once you up the boost, add meth, remove weight, etc. It's a toss up of the conditions at that point. There is no magic manifold or magic difference.

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    With 30rwhp gains I'd say there some tuning going into it. I seen cars running it just for cooling
    have almost 0 gain my old AA setup included but I'm
    NO expert!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
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    With 30rwhp gains I'd say there some tuning going into it. I seen cars running it just for cooling
    have almost 0 gain my old AA setup included but I'm
    NO expert!
    30 whp doesn't just "happen" on the dyno. He has a flash loader and race files. The same thing they do for the race files they can do for meth. So saying they aren't tuning for it isn't accurate as they are tuning for a higher octane which the meth is essentially providing.

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    They might not tune it to depend on like my hpf setup. With nice gain of 30rwhp or more I would
    believe there is some tuning going into it. Tuning for it and depending on 2 different things.

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    Good power.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
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    They might not tune it to depend on like my hpf setup. With nice gain of 30rwhp or more I would
    believe there is some tuning going into it. Tuning for it and depending on 2 different things.
    Yep, it isn't being used as fuel or necessary for certain maps as with the HPF setup, good point.

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    Hopefully it is a race file - but if its the same theres a huge difference in timing targets between pump and meth. Pretty simple the mixtures are the same but the timing is higher up top with the meth file - boom horsepower.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    Hopefully it is a race file - but if its the same theres a huge difference in timing targets between pump and meth. Pretty simple the mixtures are the same but the timing is higher up top with the meth file - boom horsepower.
    Try explaining this to someone who thinks they aren't tuning for peak dyno numbers or taking higher octane into account.

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    What don't I understand? Obviously your going to get better timing targets with a pump+meth set-up as opposed to pump only...I just believe if it was really tuned for it the car would be putting out more hp correlating with higher boost levels......Drew didnt even break 7.5psi on his runs and is putting out the same numbers (if not better) as Gintani cars that ran 8.5-9.5 psi.....there is your answer for efficiency.

    Also, dynos can be misleading, so lets look at real world results - the ESS kit is running faster 1/4 miles (as of now, very similar traps - only difference being in difference in conditions, DA, and the Gintani runs being done at a track that traps 3+mph quicker), and putting down better numbers. At the same track, these were Drews results:

    11.7 @ 127 Gintani at 9.3psi, race gas and Meth vs. 11.3 @ 129 ESS at 7.2psi 95 octane and Meth.

    Does one kit scream like its performing better than the other? I think its pretty clear.

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    This is why forums and groupthink are a horrible thing for car communities.

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    I think the 30whp difference might be consistent with a charge cooled car run on a dyno with meth and without. The intake temperatures are far higher on the dyno especially through a charge cooler so I think the temp gain added with the methanol might show the gains. There is also a slight chance that the map isn't as efficient on the dyno as on the street therefore requiring more octane.
    We did a exercise on a N54 using meth just for cooling and kept the timing maps locked with no intercooler spray between the runs and we saw similar differences with meth on and off. I would imagine a non efficient charge cooler will be more dramatic in terms of gains.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
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    I think the 30whp difference might be consistent with a charge cooled car run on a dyno with meth and without. The intake temperatures are far higher on the dyno especially through a charge cooler so I think the temp gain added with the methanol might show the gains. There is also a slight chance that the map isn't as efficient on the dyno as on the street therefore requiring more octane.
    We did a exercise on a N54 using meth just for cooling and kept the timing maps locked with no intercooler spray between the runs and we saw similar differences with meth on and off. I would imagine a non efficient charge cooler will be more dramatic in terms of gains.
    The difference here is the timing maps aren't locked to run the same advance, the pump run is pulling after one pass, the meth run is adding - they are dynamically pulling or adding ALOT of timing. This doesn't vibe with the claim that it is used just for 'cooling' - as it is effecting the dynamic advance of the car a SIGNIFICANT amount via tuning. The only thing that is the same is the AFR. The advance is dancing around more then I would be comfortable with on a factory motor. IMO i'd leave it on the meth setting based off timing logs regardless of what 1/4 mile or 60-130 times say.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
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    Drew didnt even break 7.5psi on his runs and is putting out the same numbers (if not better) as Gintani cars that ran 8.5-9.5 psi.....there is your answer for efficiency.
    Really? Yet it doesn't translate to the track? And my car at the same boost trapped higher? And a non-meth ESS setup at 7.5 psi needed nitrous to trap over 130? And you have a tuner telling you about the timing changes at peak?

    You know you can run different maps for dyno numbers without load vs. on the street, right?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
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    Also, dynos can be misleading, so lets look at real world results - the ESS kit is running faster 1/4 miles (as of now, very similar traps - only difference being in difference in conditions, DA, and the Gintani runs being done at a track that traps 3+mph quicker), and putting down better numbers. At the same track, these were Drews results:
    No, it isn't running faster, as times set from 2009 are faster. Quicker is what you are looking for. I think you are confusing elapsed time and trap speeds but that is ok.

    Sac doesn't trap 3 mph quicker. Weird that I ran there with bolt on's vs. famoso (have you run at both tracks with the same setup?) and I trapped faster at Famoso as well as ran quicker due to it being a better prepped track. There was a timing issue in late 2010 that you might be referring to (after my runs) that they supposedly have since corrected.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ERM324 Click here to enlarge
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    Does one kit scream like its performing better than the other? I think its pretty clear.
    I think it's pretty clear you have little experience with the topic and want to believe the ESS kit is better for some reason as you are set on it and easily influenced.

    How many 1/4 mile times are there of ESS kits with lower trap speeds?

    Did you take into account that when I ran the 1/4 mile I did so with the old intake setup? Drew dyno'd with the new setup and gained 20 whp.

    Did you take into account tuning on these kits evolves over time? You know, as in, what I used in 2009, basically late 2008, isn't the exact same as to what is available now? Yet even that old setup has still has yet to be out-trapped by ANYTHING ESS has done on boost up to today? Why weren't' the kits "efficient" enough to break 130 mph when more than one car from Gintani was doing it?

    The reason why is because the Gintani setups were running and tuning for meth and the ESS setups couldn't match them pound per pound of boost (or boost as high) at that time. Now with meth the playing field is basically level with boost being the main variable. ESS was claiming 600 whp on pump gas back then, lol, go play with dyno numbers if you want.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    This is why forums and groupthink are a horrible thing for car communities.
    Not all forums.

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    No offense to PG as others have run with and put their own ideas/spin of this "efficiency" since he spoke of it, but this internet rhetoric is getting old - so let me set the record straight.

    Stock compression to compression - same exhaust to exhaust (catless), and same psi results will be similar on the same octane. Minor differences in blower delivery aside; Tuning is the only difference and anyone that has seen / observed timing curves between g power / n/a / ess / gintani kits will show that the Gintani cars have the lowest overall timing advance and richer AFRs. G power's advance was not much different then a PC N/A tune but @ 6psi LOL whoops. And look what happened to those cars.

    So, With more timing advance globally any vendor's s/c kit can make more power at the same boost level and make more efficient power - but the expense of being closer to the knock threshold. There is no 3rd party data of how close or far away these cars are from knocking, so while the ESS kit could be perfectly fine and safe, it just happens to run more timing then Gintani for their own tuning theory/reasons.
    Last edited by BrenM3; 05-18-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    No offense to PG as others have run with and put their own ideas/spin of this "efficiency" since he spoke of it, but this internet rhetoric is getting old - so let me set the record straight.
    It's a waste of time arguing with someone who is imbalanced and has made a ton of mistake since starting with the platform. It got old a long time ago.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    Stock compression to compression - same exhaust to exhaust (catless), and same psi results will be similar on the same octane. Minor differences in blower delivery aside; Tuning is the only difference and anyone that has seen / observed timing curves between g power / n/a / ess / gintani kits will show that the Gintani cars have the lowest overall timing advance and richer AFRs. G power's advance was not much different then a PC N/A tune but @ 6psi LOL whoops. And look what happened to those cars.
    You are right on but people want to believe there is some major difference to justify their purchase. It's a mental and perception issue.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
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    So, With more timing advance globally any vendor's s/c kit can make more power at the same boost level and make more efficient power - but the expense of being closer to the knock threshold. There is no 3rd party data of how close or far away these cars are from knocking, so while the ESS kit could be perfectly fine and safe, it just happens to run more timing then Gintani for their own tuning theory/reasons.
    I would add that with these flash loaders being available you will see these timing advances largely for dyno runs and not in the real world.

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    too much timing can lead to coil pack problems and spark plug issues
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