Close

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 101
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Reputation: Yes | No

    M50/M52/S50/S52 turbo spool discussion AKA OMG E36's rule torque torque torque hi5

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't think he even needs 600 foot-pounds as much as just a desire for a powerband shifted to the left. I think he is saying he is willing to sacrifice the top end for area under the curve. So, yes, maybe a waste for peak power but not for his enjoyment.

    It's a tough decision either way.
    Right, but that's what happens. When a car makes 450 hp by 4000 RPM with quick spool, the corresponding torque is high.

    Here is a 3.2L S52 and a GT3582R

    Click here to enlarge


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Right, but that's what happens. When a car makes 450 hp by 4000 RPM with quick spool, the corresponding torque is high.

    Here is a 3.2L S52 and a GT3582R

    http://voytilla.com/gallery/albums/u...rmal_dynoz.JPG
    Still takes a little while to spool and the torque falls hard although the HP remains nice and flat. Imagine if the curve was a little more to the right and the redline was 1500 rpm higher? Well, you would have the top end of an S54.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Right - except the 35R is falling off on an S52, and thats only to 6000 RPM with a set of billet cams. By 8000 RPM that thing would be dropping off big time. It drops 200 ft lbs of torque in only 1500 rpm from 4500 to 6000. There's still 2000+ rpm more to go on an S54. If it continues to fall of at that rate (which it looks like it should, looks fairly consistent) you'd end up with it tapering to 400 hp by 8000 RPM. Not to mention - when you have that much torque down low your lubrication system needs some working, your tune needs to be dead on, and its entirely anti- what an S54 curve (even NA) is like. It doesn't take a little while to spool at all.

    These runs are not to its best ability (first time at the track with the suspension setup) but look at the spool.




    (thats 25 psi)
    Last edited by 5mall5nail5; 05-11-2011 at 11:37 PM.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Right - except the 35R is falling off on an S52, and thats only to 6000 RPM with a set of billet cams. By 8000 RPM that thing would be dropping off big time.
    Yes, it will be, but the goal isn't peak power but a powerband shifted to the left. That should shift it heavily to the left...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    It doesn't take a little while to spool at all.
    In my opinion, it does as it doesn't get going until over 3500 RPM. Yes, other setups take even longer to spool, but I do prefer instant throttle response. I'll have to do a twin screw at some point.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    You're looking at an inertia dyno plot - on the street it loads WAY sooner. Like, seriously. VW 1.8T drivers are boggled by the lack of lag. We actually had to bring boost in low in lower gear to get the car to make traction. Car runs 17x11's with 315 drag radials. His throttle response is absolutely instant.

    Check this one out - from a 65 mph roll in 5th...



    Watch the boost gauge, it goes up, no lag. All the way to 20 psi. It flutters because we had a hard time controlling it at first.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    5,159
    Rep Points
    526.1
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Still takes a little while to spool and the torque falls hard although the HP remains nice and flat. Imagine if the curve was a little more to the right and the redline was 1500 rpm higher? Well, you would have the top end of an S54.
    Are you insane it lags
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    You're looking at an inertia dyno plot - on the street it loads WAY sooner. Like, seriously. VW 1.8T drivers are boggled by the lack of lag. We actually had to bring boost in low in lower gear to get the car to make traction. Car runs 17x11's with 315 drag radials. His throttle response is absolutely instant.
    The only graph I had to go buy is what was posted. Maybe with load it's different, I don't know, but according to that graph posted it does lag a bit.

    The vid does look good.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    LOL sticky, cmon man, seriously. He steps into it at like 3k RPM and its at 642 torque by 3500 lol. What lag? Look at the videos bro. We all know inertia dynos don't load like the street.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Well if you post a dyno as support of a curve expect to have that graph posted analyzed. I'm not going to make guesses regarding what the spool might be vs. what it is definitively shown to be. It is also likely that you may be downplaying the lag due to what appears on the graph.
    Dude you're out of your mind. Plainly. If I had his logs I'd post one. Its make 25 psi by 3500 rpm on a dyno. It makes 25 psi by several hundred RPM's less on the street. Watch the video - look at the turbo transience. How are you to evaluate a T3 GT3582R on a 3.2L as laggy when you're running a CF supercharger? Cmon, seriously? If you were on any technical forum calling this setup laggy you'd be laughed at.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Dude you're out of your mind. Plainly. If I had his logs I'd post one. Its make 25 psi by 3500 rpm on a dyno. It makes 25 psi by several hundred RPM's less on the street. Watch the video - look at the turbo transience. How are you to evaluate a T3 GT3582R on a 3.2L as laggy when you're running a CF supercharger? Cmon, seriously? If you were on any technical forum calling this setup laggy you'd be laughed at.
    Look, you posted the graph. What do you want me to do? Ignore it? Yes, with load it will spool faster.

    I constantly mention I hate the response of a centrifugal. That may also be why I mentioned a positive displacement in a previous post...

    Look, I know you guys are obsessed with proving how awesome the M50/S50 is blah blah blah but this isn't even the thread for it. I'll move the posts to another one and if you want to argue how little lag a setup has maybe don't post graphs as support that show it getting going at over 3500 rpm?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Look, you posted the graph. What do you want me to do? Ignore it? Yes, with load it will spool faster.

    I constantly mention I hate the response of a centrifugal. That may also be why a mentioned a positive displacement in a previous post...

    Look, I know you guys are obsessed with proving how awesome the M50/S50 is blah blah blah but this isn't even the thread for it. I'll move the posts to another one and if you want to argue how little lag a setup has maybe don't post graphs a support that show it getting going at over 3500 rpm?
    Actually if you read my posts I am not that fanatical about this setup. Its amazing fast. It spools and goes as soon as you THINK about going. In fact, in the other videos, the turbo is whistling at 25 psi before you hear the exhaust. However, I don't like the torque fall off at all.

    Dude - lol. I will pay you money to find a BMW making that torque that low. Bring it on. That is not laggy, sorry Sticky your lack of experience is shining here.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,385
    Rep Points
    375.4
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Look, you posted the graph. What do you want me to do? Ignore it? Yes, with load it will spool faster.

    I constantly mention I hate the response of a centrifugal. That may also be why a mentioned a positive displacement in a previous post...

    Look, I know you guys are obsessed with proving how awesome the M50/S50 is blah blah blah but this isn't even the thread for it. I'll move the posts to another one and if you want to argue how little lag a setup has maybe don't post graphs a support that show it getting going at over 3500 rpm?
    Damn I HOPE my setup hits 25psi by low 3krpms! Thats pretty badass actually IMO

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Dude - lol. I will pay you money to find a BMW making that torque that low. Bring it on. That is not laggy, sorry Sticky your lack of experience is shining here.
    I don't know if I can find a BMW making that much torque lower but I can find BMW's making torque earlier, as in, basically any positive displacement BMW setup which will offer greater response. No matter what the turbo has to spool, no matter what it will have some lag.

    Yes, we all know, you have experience with everything and anyone who disagrees is not experienced since you have so much experience in telling others they have no experience.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    5,159
    Rep Points
    526.1
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    I find it odd how questions of spool come up. There has been a member on here with a gt35r setup that raped HPF stage 2 ,and 2.5 cars. Why the questions of spool. LOL
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Damn I HOPE my setup hits 25psi by low 3krpms! Thats pretty badass actually IMO
    Your motor comparatively based on dyno graphs shows it really is a stump puller with quick spool. Your motor is higher compression and direct injected though with a trick exhaust manifold though. The thing is your torque falls off hard, still, your spool is rather amazing.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    I find it odd how questions of spool come up. There has been a member on here with a gt35r setup that raped HPF stage 2 ,and 2.5 cars. Why the questions of spool. LOL
    Because it was a powerband discussion where this originated. Of course it really doesn't ultimately matter for peak performance where you are spending your time up top, not at 1500 rpm.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know if I can find a BMW making that much torque but I can find BMW's making torque earlier, as in, basically any positive displacement BMW setup which will offer greater response. No matter what the turbo has to spool, no matter what it will have some lag.

    Yes, we all know, you have experience with everything and anyone who disagrees is not experienced since you have so much experience in telling others they have no experience.
    Of course it has to spool. Its called boost threshold. But this turbo goes from vacuum to 25 psi under 3500 RPM. Its more like 3000 RPM on the street. 99% of the time, cruising on the highway, you are at an RPM HIGHER than when it spools. Sorry bro - you're looking silly on this one. No positive displacement blower makes 25 psi on a BMW, and no positive displacement BMW make 642 rwtq by 3500 on an inertia dyno (they'd be lucky to make half of that).



    Go to 2:17 if you want to see how a laggy car pulls away doing 55 mph in 5th.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Of course it has to spool. Its called boost threshold. But this turbo goes from vacuum to 25 psi under 3500 RPM. Its more like 3000 RPM on the street. 99% of the time, cruising on the highway, you are at an RPM HIGHER than when it spools. Sorry bro - you're looking silly on this one. No positive displacement blower makes 25 psi on a BMW, and no positive displacement BMW make 642 rwtq by 3500 on an inertia dyno (they'd be lucky to make half of that).
    Let's go with even 3000 rpm, ok, you don't consider that laggy? What do you think of an N63 spooling 1000 rpm sooner? BMW seems to find 3000 rpm unacceptable for whatever reason, likely because they pride themselves on response. I agree more with that line of thinking of turbo development. I hate my centrifugal enough down low to know what I prefer, ok?

    There aren't any 25 psi positive displacements on BMW's (although would be nice to see more development with big twin screws), never said there were. Never said they made more torque. I said they make torque earlier, and they do.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Let's go with even 3000 rpm, ok, you don't consider that laggy? What do you think of an N63 spooling 1000 rpm sooner? BMW seems to find 3000 rpm unacceptable for whatever reason, likely because they pride themselves on response. I agree more with that line of thinking of turbo development. I hate my centrifugal enough down low to know what I prefer, ok?

    There aren't any 25 psi positive displacements on BMW's (although would be nice to see more development with big twin screws), never said there were. Never said they made more torque. I said they make torque earlier, and they do.
    Does an N54 make 640 tq? I don't think they do.

    Honestly sticky, if we had thought to start the dyno in 5th gear at 1500 RPM I think you'd be eating your words. Look at every video posted in this thread. To even consider it "laggy" in the least is asinine. People DROOL over Jays boost curve and torque plot. An N54 making what 10 psi with two itty bitty turbos by 2500 RPM is great. Making a GT3582R spin to 25 psi before 3500 RPM and having almost 650 ft lb torque... at the WHEEL. And then to call it laggy. Laughable - truly.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    5,159
    Rep Points
    526.1
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    6


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Let's go with even 3000 rpm, ok, you don't consider that laggy? What do you think of an N63 spooling 1000 rpm sooner? BMW seems to find 3000 rpm unacceptable for whatever reason, likely because they pride themselves on response. I agree more with that line of thinking of turbo development. I hate my centrifugal enough down low to know what I prefer, ok?

    There aren't any 25 psi positive displacements on BMW's (although would be nice to see more development with big twin screws), never said there were. Never said they made more torque. I said they make torque earlier, and they do.
    an n63 is 1400lbs more then the car in question ROFL
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Does an N54 make 640 tq? I don't think they do.
    Bud, what are you talking about? What N54? Who brought that up?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    an n63 is 1400lbs more then the car in question ROFL
    So what? And if the N63 was in the car in question then what?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Bud, what are you talking about? What N54? Who brought that up?
    Obviously I typo'd. N63. Where's all the 3000 - 3500 RPM 640 ft lb N63s at?


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    885
    Rep Points
    8.0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0



    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So what? And if the N63 was in the car in question then what?
    Then it'd still be slower. And the car would be heavier lol. This is a losing argument. Its like fighting with a kid over which capri sun tastes better.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    117,076
    Rep Points
    31,288.5
    Mentioned
    2053 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    313


    Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Obviously I typo'd. N63. Where's all the 3000 - 3500 RPM 640 ft lb N63s at?
    Shouldn't you at least give them a chance to get going? Considering they are higher compression, direct injected, and the exhaust manifold is much more advanced namely on the S63, don't you think you should look at their potential optimistically?

    So they are only hitting 464 all wheel torque with just a tune, heh, I think the future is pretty bright.

    Hell the new Benz is hitting 600 rear wheel torque STOCK at around 2600 rpm lol and 644 pound feet stock: http://www.benzboost.com/content.php...e-2011-S63-AMG

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •