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  1. #1
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    Plugs, this can't be good.

    Click here to enlarge

    These are my brand new NGK Racing plugs after roughly 200mi-300mi in my HPF Stage 3 car. I've always felt its been running a bit rich. Looks carbon fouled.. after about 1000mi i'll start having spark/coil issues above 4krpm. I've replaced all the Okada coils, I've replaced all the plugs.. this is my second set of plugs/coils.

    Is this an ignition issue, timing issue, lean/rich issue? Any input would be hugely appreciated! Thanks guys!

    Here are the same type of plugs after about 1500mi in my car. I swapped them due to the issue I described above..

    Click here to enlarge

    I believe most of the other cars are running Denso Iridium (sp) plugs.. I think only the Stage 3+ guys run the NGK Racing plugs.

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    You burning thru okadas??? Something gotta be wrong. Haven't had any issues with my 2.5 with stock coils. Best to call HPF also. They don't post here so no direct response.

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    How rich is rich? WOT, or just driving around? What are ur afr's at idle?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    These are my brand new NGK Racing plugs after roughly 200mi-300mi in my HPF Stage 3 car.
    I wouldn't say they are totally lost. I would take the car for a couple of hard pulls somewhere and see if they clean up.

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    Running really rich isn't too good for piston rings.
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I wouldn't say they are totally lost. I would take the car for a couple of hard pulls somewhere and see if they clean up.
    Click here to enlarge

    Plugs self-clean when lean-burned, not when doing hard pulls when the run richer than 11.0:1. Bad suggestion.


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    The coils are fine.. so here's what I've done thus far.

    Initially I thought it was a coil issue.. so I swaped my brand new (but potentially faulty?) Okada coils.. with ccsykes used Okada Coils that he had in his car when it was VF. The car ran perfect for the next 1500mi. Then the issue came back.. misfiring (feels like traction control) at about 4krpm+. So I said ok.. its definitely not the coils.. or if it is the coils.. something is causing them to go bad. So I thought maybe one of the plugs was bad.. specifically #3 in my second picture. So I put new NGK Racing plugs in (same plugs as before).. ran it for 300mi and decided to just inspect and see how they looked. Well they look almost identically to the 1-2,4-6 plugs that had 1500mi on them. I'm guessing once they start to look like #3 (after about 1500mi) the resistence in the plug is causing the coil to fail under highload..

    I was told by someone who was behind me during the Nor Cal caravan to MFest that I appeared to be running rather rich.. smokey..

    My bumper is almost completely black after 2k mi.. but my AFR at Idle is about 12-12.4 .. which I believe is ok?

    So I'm sorta scratching my head on this one.

    I've brought it to HPF's attention but being I'm going ProEFI I just didn't want to eat up any of their time and also didn't want to ship my EMS back n forth.. I should have to car to Jason @ ProEFI within 2 weeks.

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    Oh and I have NOT run meth.. OR RACE GAS on these plugs. These are strictly Shell 91 pump.. and I would say I probably boosted MAYBE once.. very lightly.. the majority of the milage was highway.. and or stop and go in traffic..

    I pretty much babied the car for these 300mi and didn't use meth/etc.. just wanted to see what 91 pump and driving like a ordinary person would net me as results.. and its pretty much the same.

    I'm no expert on cars and I've never claimed to be.. but when I watch my AFRs they tend to go more lean then rich.. aka under light acceleration, or when decelerating using engine braking, or very lightly accelerating such as going up a slight incline while on the highway.

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    Engine braking should go very lean. If you maintain 55mph on the highway in 5th gear what is your AFR?

    Also - what part number on the NGK plugs? Its possible they're too cold for your driving style.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ZooyorQ Click here to enlarge
    The coils are fine.. so here's what I've done thus far.

    Initially I thought it was a coil issue.. so I swaped my brand new (but potentially faulty?) Okada coils.. with ccsykes used Okada Coils that he had in his car when it was VF. The car ran perfect for the next 1500mi. Then the issue came back.. misfiring (feels like traction control) at about 4krpm+. So I said ok.. its definitely not the coils.. or if it is the coils.. something is causing them to go bad. So I thought maybe one of the plugs was bad.. specifically #3 in my second picture. So I put new NGK Racing plugs in (same plugs as before).. ran it for 300mi and decided to just inspect and see how they looked. Well they look almost identically to the 1-2,4-6 plugs that had 1500mi on them. I'm guessing once they start to look like #3 (after about 1500mi) the resistence in the plug is causing the coil to fail under highload..

    I was told by someone who was behind me during the Nor Cal caravan to MFest that I appeared to be running rather rich.. smokey..

    My bumper is almost completely black after 2k mi.. but my AFR at Idle is about 12-12.4 .. which I believe is ok?

    So I'm sorta scratching my head on this one.

    I've brought it to HPF's attention but being I'm going ProEFI I just didn't want to eat up any of their time and also didn't want to ship my EMS back n forth.. I should have to car to Jason @ ProEFI within 2 weeks.
    Those afr's at idle seem pretty rich to me. My afr's at idle are at about 14.2-14.8. What about at WOT?
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Ack just saw the idle afr. No, 12 - 12.4 is too rich, unless you mean cold-start/warm-up AFRs, then thats ok. Whats the idle like after driving 20 mins? Whats the AFR like when cruising at 55 mph?


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Engine braking should go very lean. If you maintain 55mph on the highway in 5th gear what is your AFR?

    Also - what part number on the NGK plugs? Its possible they're too cold for your driving style.
    R2525-10 - Stock# 5281

    I drive like a bit of a puss around my town being its so loud and it attracts alot of attention and scares old people. Sometimes driving it at 1800rpms at 30mph very lightly on the gas while trying to baby it back to the garage without getting arrested.

    Once I"m on the freeway I generally drive pretty evenly at 2800-3000 rpm in 6th.

    I can't recall off the top of my head what 55mph in 5th is like on the AFR's.. I'll have to check but I think its low 13's high 12's.. COULD BE WRONG.. I'll check it out tomorrow. The car is in an inconvenient spot right now that requires me to play musical cars and I'm tired and hungry. Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    Those afr's at idle seem pretty rich to me. My afr's at idle are at about 14.2-14.8. What about at WOT?
    Not to sound like a wuss.. but under WOT throttle I'm not looking at anything but the road straight ahead. $#@! gets pretty scary pretty fast in these cars and my tires are crap. I wish I had the Can gauges from ProEFI.. they have trailing so I can see what my last afr low/high was.. I'll have to get a passenger in the car to pay attention to the gauges while I drive it..

    Is there a max lean/rich you should see when driving it.. aka if I ever see it hit high 16's/17's while driving under acceleration, etc, while pulling out of McDonalds/etc.. is that a bad thing.. or can the car's AFR's bounce all over the place during light acceleration/downshifting, etc..

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    I'd say the idle is still in the mid 12's even after warming up.. Generally when I'm looking at the mirror.. it always seems to be in the 12s..

    It takes me a good 3-4 shots to get it started.. sometimes I can crank it for 15 seconds and absolutely nothing happens.. then I let it sit for a minute and do it again and its fine. After its warmed up it consistently starts as it should.

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    Seems pretty rich man for just idle after warm up
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Yeah thats what I thought as well. Probably not a good idea to drive it while running that rich? I wanted to drive it down to ProEFI (600mi) rather then deal with the costs associated with shipping the ems/etc back n forth from HPF and downtime.

    But I might have to do that regardless.

    HPF was rushed due to MFest and we ran short of time in the end there and my car was never officially taken through the 1 week drivibiliy/tuning.. It was literally 9:30pm the night before MFest and we rolled it off the dyno after replacing the coils. So I knew there would be some hiccups.. but now that I'm really interested in E85 I just want to get it to Jason so we can begin converting it over Click here to enlarge

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    That's another thing I don't have. My car starts right up. Maybe have a crank more. Seen alot of hpf guys talking about this,also never had what ever there calling idle reset. Whatever that is.

    I pay attention to Afrs everything when I drive. Mine Idle 14-14.5.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    That's another thing I don't have. My car starts right up. Maybe have a crank more. Seen alot of hpf guys talking about this,also never had what ever there calling idle reset. Whatever that is.

    I pay attention to Afrs everything when I drive. Mine Idle 14-14.5.
    What about at WOT? Sucks the OP payed a big amount of cash to get rushed tune that runs really rich. I hope this doesn't cause early ring wear, or other issues. Too much fuel on cylinder walls is a no no.Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    I'll report back with exact WOT afrs shortly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
    I'll report back with exact WOT afrs shortly.
    Great. Here is a video of my afr's driving around town.

    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    My afrs are perfect. I had chris k on phone with me yesterday when I was beating on the car. His said afrs are spot on.

    In for details when you switch. After I see more hpf cars do this I might switch. AEM works fine with me but more saftety features and e85 map might be cool.

    Pro efi gets nut hugged hard here and e46. Supras guys seemed to like but I need to see more
    s54 setups out running. Not just a dyno.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GG///M3 Click here to enlarge
    What about at WOT? Sucks the OP payed a big amount of cash to get rushed tune that runs really rich. I hope this doesn't cause early ring wear, or other issues. Too much fuel on cylinder walls is a no no.Click here to enlarge
    I know you cannot resist a jab at HPF.. but being I'm having it converted over to ProEFI i'm wondering if 600mi of running rich on the highway (high 12's, low 13's) is damaging enough that I should instead send my EMS back to HPF for adjustments prior to that drive.

    Your car definitely runs leaner then mine, mine is about 1 below yours.. so if yours is showing 14/15.. mine would be probably 13/14

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    Did you call chris k?? E46 you can get a direct response.

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    Dude the problem is the plugs you're running.

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5281/

    That says manufacturer heat rating: 10. 10 is way too cold. Factory is 6 or 7. "colder plugs" are 7 or 8. 10 is like, wow cold. I foul 8's or 9's after a while. 7's I can cruise on all day long. I'd look at what other people are running - those plugs seem way too (expensive) cold.

    When driving part throttle the ECU should be targeting 1 lambda or so, so 14.7:1 afr. But, it will swing back and forth, even cruising. So you might see 15's, then 14's, etc. That's any time part throttle. WOT should go open loop or target a much richer mixture from maybe 10.8:1 - 11.5:1


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Dude the problem is the plugs you're running.

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5281/

    That says manufacturer heat rating: 10. 10 is way too cold. Factory is 6 or 7. "colder plugs" are 7 or 8. 10 is like, wow cold. I foul 8's or 9's after a while. 7's I can cruise on all day long. I'd look at what other people are running - those plugs seem way too (expensive) cold.

    When driving part throttle the ECU should be targeting 1 lambda or so, so 14.7:1 afr. But, it will swing back and forth, even cruising. So you might see 15's, then 14's, etc. That's any time part throttle. WOT should go open loop or target a much richer mixture from maybe 10.8:1 - 11.5:1
    Most everyone else is running Denso Iridium's.. (sp).. Is it possible the plugs are as cold as they are to support WOT w/high boost?

  25. #25
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    He's right. WOT is pretty much exact to what he said 10.8-11.5. My idle is 14.5. Given it will
    jump either way for second.

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