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  1. #1
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    Lets talk Turbo sizing

    So I've made the decision to go with the ProEFI and run E85. I have 1,200 R/C injectors and plan on putting a fuel system together that will handle just about anything I chose to throw at it now or in the future.

    As most are aware I have the HPF stage 3 which uses a 71mm billet Precision turbo. It made 800 WHP. I found the turbo to be a bit laggy for my tastes to be quite honest. It didn't have the pep my VF stage II had. Yes it was a beast once spooled.. but I want a driver, not a rocket ship.

    I'm going to be focusing mainly on tracking the car. I'm not really interested in highway pulls or even drag racing for that matter. I also could care less about making huge HP numbers considering the E46 M3 chassis can't even really handle it. I want balance, I want my power to compliment the strengths of the E46 M3.

    I'm looking for 600-700 HP, decent TQ and a very track friendly quick spooling turbo.

    Ideas, thoughts and suggestions??

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    gt3788r might not be a bad choice, I don't think you'd be straining it terribly hard with 600-700 hp and if you're focused on tracking the car I don't see why you'd need any more power than that. It seems like it would take a fair amount of seat time to get good at using all of that, possibly longer than the life of the turbo itself particularly if you're tracking it aggressively/frequently.

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    A GT3586 HTA, or a GTX35R would meet the power goals, but it might be hard to keep it from knocking in the lower RPM's.

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    Has HPF recommended anything? Chris is using your turbo now on the road course I believe.

    I understand what you mean by wanting a curve moved more to the left as the Stage 3 is very peaky. Just not sure what turbo to suggest for you. Either way, with Pro-Efi you won't have any issues tuning for it.

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    Precision 6262?
    JB4LIFE

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    A 6265BB could work pretty well. The S54 needs a turbo that breathes up top, the larger turbine might help over the 6262 (which might just be a bit too restrictive at higher boost levels).

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bimmerdude Click here to enlarge
    A 6265BB could work pretty well. The S54 needs a turbo that breathes up top, the larger turbine might help over the 6262 (which might just be a bit too restrictive at higher boost levels).
    Good point, I've herd good things about 6262 precision turbos so I imagine 6265 would be great for this application
    JB4LIFE

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Has HPF recommended anything? Chris is using your turbo now on the road course I believe..
    I may just work with what I have but still add the fuel cell. With the ProEFI I can always experiment later. I'll see what Jason has to say and look into some of the turbos mentioned so far.

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    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    That looks pretty damn big, bigger than what he currently has.

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    $#@! gets pretty hairy when you're going sideways at 100mph... when that T71 spools up its insane.. and you can easily keep it spooled due to the close ratio gear box and a fast shift.. but man is it crazy. I'll probably end up trying a few different turbo setups and what not over the course of the life of the car. For now I'd just like to get it out on the strip.. hit some 10's.. then set it up properly for weekend tracking as I think long term tracking it will be more enjoyable then dragging it.

    I still love the expression of someone experiencing that sort of boost for the first time. Makes me want to put a go pro in the car just to capture all the first time reactions.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I may just work with what I have but still add the fuel cell. With the ProEFI I can always experiment later. I'll see what Jason has to say and look into some of the turbos mentioned so far.
    Why would you get rid of the OEM fuel tank? It's low mounted, and is from a balance perspective in a very good place on the car. (Ahead of the rear axle line)

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    Maybe a Hta gt37
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

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    Weren't you talking about putting a solid axle in this car? Confused.


    Anyway - before you go swapping turbos willy nilly, realize that the tune will need alteration big time. Its tuned speed density with a MAP sensor. Needless to say the volume flow from a 71 at 250 kPA is a lot different than a 6262 at 250 kPA.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PEI330Ci Click here to enlarge
    Why would you get rid of the OEM fuel tank? It's low mounted, and is from a balance perspective in a very good place on the car. (Ahead of the rear axle line)
    The OEM setup looses fuel to the pump in hard cornering. Most guys have to either make modifications or run half a tank of gas all the time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Weren't you talking about putting a solid axle in this car? Confused.
    Many, many months ago I thought about it for a day. I never said I wanted a live axle, only that I felt the E46 M3 would need one to be a reliable drag car. After taking my car to the track I realized the bigger problem was the transmission gearing. The E46 M3 tranny gearing sucks for drag racing. Compare the E46 M3 Getrag side by side with a W58 or V16 Toyota tranny (Supra) and you realize why the M3's are having such a hard time breaking into he 10's. People are always saying "Well the Supra did it".. but then fail to mention the Supra's tranny was better geared to do so.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Anyway - before you go swapping turbos willy nilly, realize that the tune will need alteration big time. Its tuned speed density with a MAP sensor. Needless to say the volume flow from a 71 at 250 kPA is a lot different than a 6262 at 250 kPA.
    I'm more than well aware of this and its the main reason I'm switching to the ProEFI. Believe it or not, but it doesn't take a Mensa member to learn how to use an EMS GUI.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I'm more than well aware of this and its the main reason I'm switching to the ProEFI. Believe it or not, but it doesn't take a Mensa member to learn how to use an EMS GUI.
    True - are you going to run speed density hybrid alpha-n with a pressure compensation table or speed density MAP based? Do you know what the ADC is of the ProEFI? What map sensor would you go with? I can't remember if their system has baro reference or not but that might influence the decision. What kind of pressure target are you looking at? I might be motivated to run a hybrid speed density configuration given the S54 induction system - nice pressure compensation would be nice.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Weren't you talking about putting a solid axle in this car? Confused.
    He was talking about what would be necessary to maximize the cars potential on the strip and he is correct.

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    Nah - can maintain a good driving car with an IRS. It might take some effort, but a solid axle is not required.

    Click here to enlarge

    Incredible handling in curves AND in line. Tubbed, as well.


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Nah - can maintain a good driving car with an IRS. It might take some effort, but a solid axle is not required.
    Sure, there are other IRS setups that give a good balance but ultimately on the E46 a solid rear axle setup will be MUCH better at the strip. The GT500 is a solid rear axle for a reason yet it also does well in the curves so there are examples on both sides. He was just brainstorming what could be done to improve it, not that he was converting to a solid rear.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That looks pretty damn big, bigger than what he currently has.
    really? I thought it would be smaller if he hit 800whp on his current turbo this EFR is rated at 650 hp. He can go one size smaller, all i know is that there will be very little lag with this set up if he wanted use for track. It would be a cool thing to do too, first EFR turbo on a e46 m3..
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Sure, there are other IRS setups that give a good balance but ultimately on the E46 a solid rear axle setup will be MUCH better at the strip. The GT500 is a solid rear axle for a reason yet it also does well in the curves so there are examples on both sides. He was just brainstorming what could be done to improve it, not that he was converting to a solid rear.
    GT500 is solid axle because the FR500C and FR500S need a homologous chassis for racing and the rules require solid axles with
    panhard rods/watts linkage. They didn't pick it because it was "better" - they picked it because it works within production and racing modes.

    The E46 would actually work a lot better with an IRS as pictures above. That car above is an E30 BMW with a C4 4-link using dodge viper cover on a dana 44. There's no need to go to a solid rear unless you have a hard time keeping ring and pinions together. Even still, the dana 44 above is not "huge" but has a ring diameter of 200mm. Large enough for well over a thousand ft lb of torque.

    Don't confuse "solid axle" with a 4-link. A solid axle is just that - my land rover has a solid axle. The suspension still needs to be overhauled on any stock solid-axle setup. Usually resulting in a 4-link coil over setup. Point is, you can 4-link an IRS too and have superb handling (worlds better than a solid axle FR500 car) AND linear traction.


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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    True - are you going to run speed density hybrid alpha-n with a pressure compensation table or speed density MAP based? Do you know what the ADC is of the ProEFI? What map sensor would you go with? I can't remember if their system has baro reference or not but that might influence the decision. What kind of pressure target are you looking at? I might be motivated to run a hybrid speed density configuration given the S54 induction system - nice pressure compensation would be nice.
    I realize your trying to sound like a condescending ass with your post. You know it and I know it. I don't know the first thing about this stuff yet but I'm going to learn. The best place to start is having someone else set the car up, then I learn from that.

    I figure if I can be self taught securities law, public finance and investor relations without ever having any formal education, then go on to build a multi-million dollar public and investor relations firm, I'm probably smart enough to figure out what map sensor I need to run when the time comes. Just saying.

    I don't know why I bothered taking you off ignore.. welcome back to it.
    Last edited by ccsykes; 05-10-2011 at 02:46 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    GT500 is solid axle because the FR500C and FR500S need a homologous chassis for racing and the rules require solid axles with
    panhard rods/watts linkag
    The Mustang had a solid rear axle before they started racing the FR500C and FR500S. They used an IRS for a while with the Cobras as well.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    They didn't pick it because it was "better" - they picked it because it works within production and racing modes.
    Umm, the 302R with the 5.0 has replaced the FR500C.

    Still, it proves that with a solid rear you can handle well. Cobra owners wanted a solid rear for a while specifically for drag racing. It is cheaper and easier to beef up, and IRS is usually preferred for road course work not the strip.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    The E46 would actually work a lot better with an IRS as pictures above. That car above is an E30 BMW with a C4 4-link using dodge viper cover on a dana 44. There's no need to go to a solid rear unless you have a hard time keeping ring and pinions together. Even still, the dana 44 above is not "huge" but has a ring diameter of 200mm. Large enough for well over a thousand ft lb of torque.
    The E46 has a notoriously weak rear end. Simplifying it with a strong solid rear if drag racing is the only goal isn't a bad idea. I haven't seen any solid numbers out of the E46 on the strip thus far with an IRS, have you?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 5mall5nail5 Click here to enlarge
    Don't confuse "solid axle" with a 4-link. A solid axle is just that - my land rover has a solid axle. The suspension still needs to be overhauled on any stock solid-axle setup. Usually resulting in a 4-link coil over setup. Point is, you can 4-link an IRS too and have superb handling (worlds better than a solid axle FR500 car) AND linear traction.
    I'm not even going that far and I'm not sure why you are. Nobody is actually putting a solid rear axle in the E46 but if your only goal is drag racing a solid rear ford 9 inch is a tried and true setup for the strip that can take abuse. Many of the C4 people you seem to be referring to go to a solid rear Ford 9 inch for drag racing, I wonder why?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I realize your trying to sound like a condescending ass with your post. You know it and I know it. I don't know the first thing about this stuff yet but I'm going to learn. The best place to start is having someone else set the car up, then I learn from that.

    I figure if I can be self taught securities law, public finance and investor relations without ever having any formal education, then go on to build a multi-million dollar public and investor relations firm, I'm probably smart enough to figure out what map sensor I need to run when the time comes. Just saying.

    I don't know why I bothered taking you off ignore.. welcome back to it.
    Yep - "ignore" what threatens you I guess. I am not trying to be condescending in the least. You have good relations. Thats awesome - I wish you good luck in your endeavors but no, having a car setup for you is not how to learn. Its how to learn how to tweak an existing setup. Sometimes its good to research and think about requirements and options after understanding what things do and why and when the best time is to use them. Gloating about "firms" and investing and blah blah is not really going to gain you any knowledge in configuring/tuning standalone management systems suffice to say.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The Mustang had a solid rear axle before they started racing the FR500C and FR500S. They used an IRS for a while with the Cobras as well.
    Correct, but they dropped due to strength.


    Umm, the 302R with the 5.0 has replaced the FR500C.
    Ok? It doesn't change the fact that they still race FR500S and C lol with solid axles based on the homologous GT.

    Still, it proves that with a solid rear you can handle well. Cobra owners wanted a solid rear for a while specifically for drag racing. It is cheaper and easier to beef up, and IRS is usually preferred for road course work not the strip.
    No - clarify. Cobra owners do not want a solid rear. They want a suspension that holds power for drag racing. That happened to be a solid rear with a 4 link setup. A solid rear alone means nothing. IRS can be setup for any given configuration. You will not have good luck with an IRS using trailing arms. Thus, the 4 link. Just because a car runs an "IRS" do not associate it with what BMW does. The "I" in the RS is just that - no solid beam. A solid beam in an E46 M3 won't do jack squat. It needs to have proper suspension to handle the task. An "I" RS with proper geometry (4 link rear) works just as well as a solid rear w/ 4 link. Its just usually more difficult to draw up a chassis with an IRS and 4-link than it is to have a single beam. It comes down to cost and engineering. However, since we're talking about unibody cars here, a 4 link IRS would be PERFECT. Note the axles on the the following IRS. Also note the 4 link bars.

    Click here to enlarge

    The E46 has a notoriously weak rear end. Simplifying it with a strong solid rear if drag racing is the only goal isn't a bad idea. I haven't seen any solid numbers out of the E46 on the strip thus far with an IRS, have you?
    Nope - but I wouldn't stick a solid rear in it. I'd fix the rear axles and geometry. I wouldn't want an E46 M3 with a solid rear... that's terrible.

    I'm not even going that far and I'm not sure why you are. Nobody is actually putting a solid rear axle in the E46 but if your only goal is drag racing a solid rear ford 9 inch is a tried and true setup for the strip that can take abuse. Many of the C4 people you seem to be referring to go to a solid rear Ford 9 inch for drag racing, I wonder why?
    Because they can't be bothered with the engineering of an IRS. It is more work to turn an E46 M3 into a tubbed IRS car. You have two axles that need to point the same direction individually of one another. A solid beam is much easier to make point forward. But, there are twin turbo vipers on IRS killing the 1/4. The C4 setup I am talking about is only a C4 axle setup - look in the image above. If you find a corvette running that stock then they wouldn't be swapping a solid rear. It takes more thought. Unfortunately drag racing is like the cavemen - "I keep breakin' these here sticks... put in a bigger stick!". Guys are taking 500 - 600 rwhp car's and putting huge solid axles on them, adding 350 lbs to the weight of the car and going slower because they had a bad pinion angle the whole time and not enough positive camber pre-load. Point is, if you venture outside of BMW world, a lot of things make more sense. You should go over to Yellowbullet Click here to enlarge


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