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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I wasn't aware there was another tune for the N54 that controlled meth. Who is it and how much do they charge?
    Doesn't the Coolingmist system interface with the JB?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't the Coolingmist system interface with the JB?
    I don't know, I was under the impression they used their own controller.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I don't know, I was under the impression they used their own controller.
    Which is designed to work with the JB I think?

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    As of right now, the CM kit is still controlled by its own progressive device but it does directly interface with the JB4 which has built in safeties and boost ramping. The JB4 doesn't control the meth but it is still a great way to do things and it costs much less as a package(JB4, CM progressive kit, DCI, chargepipe or elbow) than the Vishnu kit.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Trevor008 Click here to enlarge
    As of right now, the CM kit is still controlled by its own progressive device but it does directly interface with the JB4 which has built in safeties and boost ramping
    There we go, that's what I thought.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Trevor008 Click here to enlarge
    The JB4 doesn't control the meth but it is still a great way to do things and it costs much less as a package(JB4, CM progressive kit, DCI, chargepipe or elbow) than the Vishnu kit.
    Yep, and what is the price difference? Don't both ultimately achieve the same goal?

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Which is designed to work with the JB I think?
    I'm sure it's designed to work with any tune. Still that's not the same as what were talking about. From what I understand of the Vishnu kit the procede IS the controller and all the functions are tunable right through the procede. That's something someone like me values. It's just a matter of preference I suppose, I'll use the manifold example I mentioned earlier. The RB25 full race manifold costs $2300 and is the best one available for that engine, the 6boost is probably 80% as good and cost 50% as much. Better bang per buck so to speak but I care more about getting what I perceive to be the best rather than what may save me a few $. I'm sure you can get a car plenty fast and powerful by using cheaper stuff but the top end $#@! is always priced more than what it should be for the % it's better over it's next competitor. get where I'm coming from?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure it's designed to work with any tune. Still that's not the same as what were talking about. From what I understand of the Vishnu kit the procede IS the controller and all the functions are tunable right through the procede.
    Yes, as stated before, the JB does not control it as the meth system has its own controller. The apple comments seem to be quite valid with how Vishnu is trying to control every aspect. I don't know if the Coolingmist setup can do everything it can with the JB with any tune.

    What does one offer that the other doesn't?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure you can get a car plenty fast and powerful by using cheaper stuff but the top end $#@! is always priced more than what it should be for the % it's better over it's next competitor. get where I'm coming from?
    I think the argument that you are trying to make is paying for quality and I have no problem with that. I don't spend what I spend on what I spend it on if I didn't believe that. However, Vishnu has a history of overcharging for what they give you and essentially milking the market. This seems to continue right down that path. If you like it, buy it, but I believe in rewarding quality, not greed.

    I like making quality purchases as well not just spending money for the sake of spending it.

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    If you are the first to do something or offer a feature no one else has your gonna milk it. That's good business and the way it's done in all industries. Maybe because I'm a business owner I understand that, but don't be idealistic buddy no one is in business for charities sake were all greedy.

  9. #59
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    Ive seen other companies be the first to offer certain feature(s) and not try to "milk" it. One company in particular comes to mind.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    If you are the first to do something or offer a feature no one else has your gonna milk it. That's good business and the way it's done in all industries. Maybe because I'm a business owner I understand that, but don't be idealistic buddy no one is in business for charities sake were all greedy.
    Others have similar features. This free is gouging and Vishnu has historically gouged the BMW market.

    People are in business to make money, as am I, but I don't feel the need to screw people over a few dollars. I think it is better to show respect for your customers. Maybe you don't value that over greed but I do.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, as stated before, the JB does not control it as the meth system has its own controller. The apple comments seem to be quite valid with how Vishnu is trying to control every aspect. I don't know if the Coolingmist setup can do everything it can with the JB with any tune.

    What does one offer that the other doesn't?



    I think the argument that you are trying to make is paying for quality and I have no problem with that. I don't spend what I spend on what I spend it on if I didn't believe that. However, Vishnu has a history of overcharging for what they give you and essentially milking the market. This seems to continue right down that path. If you like it, buy it, but I believe in rewarding quality, not greed.

    I like making quality purchases as well not just spending money for the sake of spending it.
    We can all argue that we could run a non progressive meth setup and get the same times when done properly. Just as this 'highly' integrated version of the vishnu setup may provide the same times as a progressive setup. The point is, extra engineering went into play to reduce the number of controllers, increase the integration between the two and possibly add a couple more features. Just spitting out an analog signal on flow level does not do squat. This has many more advantages than disadvantages. Paying an extra 400 might not be worth it to someone who would prefer to go a cheaper route, aka mr 5 intake or muffler delete or what not but IF this is done properly, there is no reason to $#@!. Its like saying that our cars don't need exhausts because god damnit I can get the same times at the track with the stock one, why throw 2,000 dollars away on AE.... WRONG. We pay for the exhaust note and a couple ponies up top, FAIL.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Others have similar features. This gouging and Vishnu has historically gouged the BMW market.

    People are in business to make money, as am I, but I don't feel the need to screw people over a few dollars. I think it is better to show respect for your customers. Maybe you don't value that over greed but I do.

    You guys just need to sit tight. When the market starts asking for it, BMS will offer the same $#@!. Its happened over and over again, then of course BMS will say they started looking into it looooooong ago but never thought there was any demand.... Just stfu if you don't want it damn. Just like some people don't want lots of things. If it sells, doesn't make that person an idiot or vishnu a poor product designer. Look at all the Louis Vuitton people buy? For christ sakes, look at the cars we all drive? We can get where we want to go in a jeep wrangler.

    Even if these people ARE idiots, they are your fellow bmw enthusiasts, and vishnu would be morons for not capitalizing on an easy and lucrative market.

  12. #62
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    Yes there is a possibility that BMS could offer something like this. But NOT at 1-2k and no extra "activation" fees either.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Even if these people ARE idiots, they are your fellow bmw enthusiasts, and vishnu would be morons for not capitalizing on an easy and lucrative market.
    I don't think they are idiots. If you didn't know any better and wanted a meth setup, you would buy it too probably. Are they stupid or is Vishnu taking advantage of them? Little of both? Maybe, but neither would be and issue if Vishnu was not greedy, correct?

    I hope they sell 5 billion and Shiv can finally get his island as I don't really care but it certainly is valid to point out there are other options to accomplish the same goal for less money.

    The BMW tax is not a good thing. The Louis Vuitton example does not hold water as it is a luxury item, not a performance item. For Louis Vuitton you are paying for the name brand, not because it can hold more things than comparable bags. It is an aesthetic piece, not one based primarily around function/performance as an automotive performance hardware piece is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    ts like saying that our cars don't need exhausts because god damnit I can get the same times at the track with the stock one, why throw 2,000 dollars away on AE.... WRONG. We pay for the exhaust note and a couple ponies up top, FAIL.
    This isn't a proper analogy or well thought out analogy. An exhaust will give you a power boost you can not otherwise get on the stock car remaining stock.

    A better example if you wish to argue this would be to say why get a mid pipe when I could just delete cats manually at a muffler shop and get the same gains? This would then play into your integration and all around package argument.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Others have similar features. This gouging and Vishnu has historically gouged the BMW market.

    People are in business to make money, as am I, but I don't feel the need to screw people over a few dollars. I think it is better to show respect for your customers. Maybe you don't value that over greed but I do.
    This is where we differ, I don't see anyone "screwing" anybody. What an absurd term, that would be the case if he was selling something that didn't work or advertising something and not delivering it. That is screwing someone over IMO this is charging what you feel your work is worth and if people want to buy it good if not then you'll have to adjust your price or find something else to do. In my business I charge what I want and I'm certainly not the cheapest, in fact there is a mini me company that copies everything I do(former family member who used to work for me) and they undercut me all the time but they get all their $#@! from china and half ass it and I just laugh the whole time while they are losing their hair(literally) to figure out why I'm selling more.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This isn't a proper analogy or well thought out analogy. An exhaust will give you a power boost you can not otherwise get on the stock car remaining stock.

    A better example if you wish to argue this would be to say why get a mid pipe when I could just delete cats manually at a muffler shop and get the same gains? This would then play into your integration and all around package argument.

    The analogy was regarding the fact that money is spent needlessly. Spending 2000 on an exhaust that does pretty much nil on the 335i compared to the money spent is a great analogy. The question was why throw the money way.



    EDIT: Upgrade meth system and a couple hand jobs or exhaust... hmm.

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    This is where we differ, I don't see anyone "screwing" anybody. What an absurd term, that would be the case if he was selling something that didn't work or advertising something and not delivering it. That is screwing someone over IMO this is charging what you feel your work is worth and if people want to buy it good if not then you'll have to adjust your price or find something else to do. In my business I charge what I want and I'm certainly not the cheapest, in fact there is a mini me company that copies everything I do(former family member who used to work for me) and they undercut me all the time but they get all their $#@! from china and half ass it and I just laugh the whole time while they are losing their hair(literally) to figure out why I'm selling more.
    I'm not saying anyone is screwing anybody I said I would not screw someone for a few dollars. I called the meth activation fee gouging which it is.

    I could say raise rates on vendors 10% or charge them activation fees, essentially holding them hostage, but I feel I should show them respect by not squeezing every last dollar out of them. I guess I prefer doing business with people who show they appreciate that business. Those are the vendors to reward in the BMW community.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    The analogy was regarding the fact that money is spent needlessly. Spending 2000 on an exhaust that does pretty much nil on the 335i compared to the money spent is a great analogy. The question was why throw the money way.

    EDIT: Upgrade meth system and a couple hand jobs or exhaust... hmm.
    The exhaust will change the aesthetic tone so there are aural qualities being purchased as well. More variables, so, even though I understand what you were trying to do and I agree somewhat the analogy doesn't work quite well in practice.

    Why throw money away? Exactly, tell me why?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This isn't a proper analogy or well thought out analogy. An exhaust will give you a power boost you can not otherwise get on the stock car remaining stock.

    A better example if you wish to argue this would be to say why get a mid pipe when I could just delete cats manually at a muffler shop and get the same gains? This would then play into your integration and all around package argument.
    No a better example IMO is for example the Eisenmann mufflers I paid 3k for. I could have gotten some magnaflows installed for like $300 and would probably sound good and look nice and flow better. But I paid 3k cause ive heard their other systems and believe it to be the best and don't care about what it cost to get the best. It probably cost eisenmann <$250 for those things but I don't care I want them and am willing to pay the 3k and that's why I got the first one made.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    No a better example IMO is for example the Eisenmann mufflers I paid 3k for. I could have gotten some magnaflows installed for like $300 and would probably sound good and look nice and flow better. But I paid 3k cause ive heard their other systems and believe it to be the best and don't care about what it cost to get the best. It probably cost eisenmann <$250 for those things but I don't care I want them and am willing to pay the 3k and that's why I got the first one made.
    Yes, I understand why you purchased what you purchased.

    But can you equate the Vishnu setup to being better than what else is out there for achieving the same goal? Nobody is buying Meth for the sound it makes.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not saying anyone is screwing anybody I said I would not screw someone for a few dollars. I called the meth activation fee gouging which it is.

    I could say raise rates on vendors 10% or charge them activation fees, essentially holding them hostage, but I feel I should show them respect by not squeezing every last dollar out of them. I guess I prefer doing business with people who show they appreciate that business. Those are the vendors to reward in the BMW community.
    You could raise rates but you couldn't hold them hostage they could simply choose not to advertise on here any longer. It's supply and demand, you can raise the price till demand falls below where you want it then you've reached you limit lower price and find an equilibrium. If people pay what he asks more power to him. If they offer something for the N63 he can count on 2k from me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yes, I understand why you purchased what you purchased.

    But can you equate the Vishnu setup to being better than what else is out there for achieving the same goal? Nobody is buying Meth for the sound it makes.
    Yes if it makes things simpler and safer buy controlling it through the tune I'd pay the extra couple hundred. For goodness sake an oil change for my car through BMW cost $200!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    I'm sure it's designed to work with any tune. Still that's not the same as what were talking about. From what I understand of the Vishnu kit the procede IS the controller and all the functions are tunable right through the procede. That's something someone like me values. It's just a matter of preference I suppose, I'll use the manifold example I mentioned earlier. The RB25 full race manifold costs $2300 and is the best one available for that engine, the 6boost is probably 80% as good and cost 50% as much. Better bang per buck so to speak but I care more about getting what I perceive to be the best rather than what may save me a few $. I'm sure you can get a car plenty fast and powerful by using cheaper stuff but the top end $#@! is always priced more than what it should be for the % it's better over it's next competitor. get where I'm coming from?
    The JB4 outputs a signal that can map meth flow with the CM controller. We even have a customer using it to map meth flow with the Aquamist controller. It's really not a big deal. We don't promote the configuration as we've found zero benefit over the basic 8/12 progressive setup.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 05-07-2011 at 02:46 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    You could raise rates but you couldn't hold them hostage they could simply choose not to advertise on here any longer. It's supply and demand, you can raise the price till demand falls below where you want it then you've reached you limit lower price and find an equilibrium. If people pay what he asks more power to him. If they offer something for the N63 he can count on 2k from me.
    The basic problem here from a business perspective is with Vishnu's general product development strategy. Which is to do 20% of the work while trying to make 80% of the profit. They do this by taking off the shelf products and components, making a few changes, putting a marketing spin on them, and then flipping them at very high margins. All that would be great if it weren't for the Internet. Any Ricky racer can look up the prices, add it up, make the same changes or better ones, has access to all of their customers via forums, and can sell the same kit for a fraction of the price. The above business model doesn't work well in the Internet age.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The JB4 outputs a signal that can map meth flow with the CM controller. We have a customer using it to map meth flow with the Aquamist controller. It's really not a big deal. We don't promote the configuration as we've found zero benefit over the basic 8/12 progressive setup.
    I don't know your product so I don't speak on it but if I understand what your saying they can map the flow but not control it without the CM correct? Or can a customer use an existing jb4 to run meth with no controller? Just seeking clarification.

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