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  1. #1
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    How the Cooling Mist CMGS System X "progressive failsafe" with autolearn works

    This is all from Cooling Mist:

    The new CMGS System X is going to be released shortly. For those of you that have our CMGS FS system and want to upgrade as well as those of you that want our new system its important that we discuss how things work.

    We designed the CMGS system in 2008. It was then and is still the only progressive gauge controller on the market. It was and is important for us to innovate. In 2009 we realized that we needed a failsafe system. We then changed the flash to allow the failsafe. (V 1.04 to V1.08).

    The way that failsafe works is as follows. There is a flow sensor, you set up the parameters for the failsafe. Lets say you are running a M10. You setup a flow window and a boost threshold. You may set the low flow window at 500 and the high flow window at 950 for example and the boost threshold at 12. using those numbers, anytime you are higher than 12 PSI and now within the 500 and 950 cc/m, the failsafe will trip and your map will revert. That leaves a very big range. You could have partial clog or leak and not know it. Also, you have to be past your boost threshold before it will trip.

    How does the new system differ? For 1 thing you just install it and go. The system autolearns and turns your failsafe on automatically. It does have a mode to let you manually turn the system on to make it learn if you want as well. There are 2 failsafes that you can run. One option is to run the flow sensor with the FCB. The other option is to run the FCB by itself. The FCB (fault control box) looks at the pumps activity and logs atleast 4 params. From this we are able to log those numbers at dutycycle and determine if things are working correct. FCB does not care about flow. The flow sensor looks at flow. It does not care about pump pressure or any thing else. These sensors will catch many of the same errors, but running them both gives max protection. The flow sensor is not compatible with more than 70% meth so if you wish to run a higher concentration you can only run the FCB.

    Ok, now that we have a basic understanding, see the charts below.

    Click here to enlarge
    In the flow table above you see the flow rate, dutycycle as well as the accepted tolerance that is programmed. By default we have a 10% tolerance on either side (this can be adjusted by the user from 1 to 50). The bolded number is the recorded flow by the flow sensor. The high and low that you see is the window where the system will trip if the flow ends up outside those numbers. Its important to note that if you have the flow sensor you must have the FCB. The CMGS would also record the FCB information in the table below. So it would look at any errors in either failsafe and trip if necessary. We show you 30% to 100% DC, however the system logs from 25% to 100% so you are covered anytime during the process. You have the ability to set the tolerance as low as 1%, we chose 10% to be the tolerance for flow to eliminate any false alarms and trip the failsafe when there was a real problem. You can play with it and set the tolerance closer if you want to specific to your situation. The chart below and above is a CM10

    Click here to enlarge


    In the table above we have a FCB (Fault control box, failsafe control box, etc). You see from 30% to 100% the value that is recorded in bold. This is the auto learned value. This value is made up of several pump feedback electronics that we log and sample. By logging all of these values at the specified DC, we know how the pump should or should not be working. From 25% to 59 we have a 20% tolerance in the pump settings, from 60 to 100% there is a 3% tolerance. If the actual pump values logged vary by more than that % it will trip the failsafe. You can set these in the configuration to any variance you want, however to prevent false alarms during testing 20% on the low DC and 3% on the high was perfect. At the mid to high DC where you need it most the FCB has only a 3% tolerance so anything that is not right it will pick up on it and trip the failsafe.

    Which is better, the FCB or Flow Sensor?

    Both work well. The FCB was designed for those of you that dont want to run any water at all. It never comes in contact with any fluid so its reliability is going to be proven very well. At low dutycycle (pre-60%) the flow sensor is going to detect faults better. After 60% both the FCB and flow sensor are outstanding. One example where the FCB is better, lets say your pump is malfunctioning and running very hot. Your system may be at full flow and flowing correctly, meanwhile your pump is overheating and the electrical draw is off the chart. The FCB would trip your failsafe and the flow sensor would not catch this. Eventually if the pump failed from overheating or what ever was causing it to malfunction, the flow sensor would catch it. The FCB would catch it long before the flow sensor.

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    WHEN ? !!!!!! how much to upgrade to FCB ? I have the vc2 with the flow sensor, but don't want to run the flow sensor, Thanks !

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    Additional picture:

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    Cant wait for this!
    Click here to enlarge


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Gbreee90 Click here to enlarge
    Cant wait for this!
    +1

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    Post

    More info..
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    The flow sensor is a love hate relationship to me. We plan to continue carrying the flow sensor as an option till the end of the year. We are going to see what the failure rate is and how many "headaches" customers have with it and lastly how well it continues to sell. Since we made the 70/30 details clear, flow sensor issues have been to a minimum.

    To make sure we are all clear, the new SYSTEM X requires the FCB for failsafe. Only the flow sensor is optional.


    PROS and CONS flow sensor

    Flow Sensor just looks at flow. It does not care about anything else. It does not care if you have high pressure and 380 ML/M or low pressure and dripping 380 ML/M. Flow is the name of the game. With that said the flow sensor has advantages and disadvantages. You can get more detail oriented with the flow rate in your failsafe setup than with the FCB. In reality you can probably get within 20 cc/m + OR - ON THE FAILSAFE SETUP at each dutycycle. Thats pretty bad ass.

    On the downside, again it does not care about pressure. it has turbine that spins inside and comes in contact with the fluid. It can clog easily, it can lose its calibration if not installed at the nozzle and so forth. It needs 30% water minimum to keep the bearings from overheating.

    In terms of howmany flow sensors we sell, they are overall reliable however I would say they have more customer problems than any other part we sell. Keep in mind that many customers on this forum will tell you they have run it for a year or 2 and had zero issues with it.


    PROS AND CONS FCB

    The FCB works completely different from the flow sensor. I think a good way to sum up the difference between the FCB and the flow sensor is that the flow sensor is a little bit more precise, the FCB can detect more kinds of faults, is more reliable and has far more functionality.

    The FCB for example can save your engine incase of a pump malfunction. If the pump is wired wring and turns on when it should not or has some other fault that causes the pump to turn on when its not supposed to the FCB will cut power to the pump completely and flash a code "999". Someday this WILL save someones engine. For example, if you wire the black pump wire to the chasis, the pump turns on when the key is turned.

    FCB has a solenoid output so it can turn a solenoind on when the pump starts. Pretty cool. It also has a led that lights up. you can mount it anywhere. Its potted.

    The FCB can detect a pump going bad. For example when the internals of a pump goes bad the pressure inside the pump will jump around like crazy as it wears out. The FCB would catch this far before the flow becomes affected. If your solenoid does not open, the FCB will catch it easy. If your pump wiring comes undone or you get a clog...all of these can easily be caught by the FCB.

    Until the system autolearns it does have a base map to protect against major things such as hose pop off, pump dying, etc. It will not catch more subtle drops in flow until the tables fill up.

    The FCB I have to say is an awesome failsafe. IMHO having both flow and FCB is the best, but the FCB is more than great by itself.

    Testing was awesome. For example using the FCB only if I learn with a CM10 AND then put on a M8, failsafe trips. Or if I put on a M2, failsafe trips. or put on a 2nd M10, failsafe trips. If I learn with a M5 and put on M10 it trips.

    all of those examples above would be problems with flow, clogs etc. so not only do big things such as pump dying or solenoid stuck closed or hose pop off trip, but subtle changes like just chaning the injector makes it trip.

    FINE TUNING

    All of the tests I discuss above were done with the default settings. How it reacts on your vehicle may or may not be different. you can easily learn the system and do tests if you like. There are 4 settings that allow you to adjust the flow sensitivity and the FCB sensitivity. Its not recommended you change ANY settings unless you are getting false failsafe trips or you need it more tight.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    also, there is alot of mis-information being spread on the other forum

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tuning god on e90
    Actually, you will find yourself filling up more often with a PPS system vs PWM system. This is a because of it's limited effective dynamic range. Nothing to do with the controller but rather the fact that you only have a ~100psi effective pressure range (100-200psi) to play around with. And that translates to a range of only 1x to 1.4x flow. So to get the same performance benefits at higher loads, you will be forced to overspray at lower loads. Not the end of the world. But just not ideal for overall meth consumption.
    This is pure BS. The range is actually roughly 40 PSI to 200 + psi. Pressure is based on nozzle size, but 40 to 200 is fair. For a small nozzle 40 to 250 is doable. On a single M10 nozzle you will spray from 260 CC/M to 810 CC/M. The advantage to our kit vs the valve based kit is our higher pressure at high boost. When you are at high boost our pressure is atleast 25% more at 200 PSI vs 150 PSI. More pressure=better atomization. Sure, the other kit has higher pressure at low boost, but always remember you need the better atomization at high boost.

    You can look at the flow table in Post #1 and see the flow range is from 260 cc/m to 810 cc/m with a M10 nozzle. That far greater than the 1 to 1.4X that Shiv is mis-informing everyone about.

    Lastly, dont anyone forget the biggest part. The PWM valve that our competitor uses changes pressure to change the flow rate. The only way to change flow is to change pressure. We used to have a high speed valve system and we discontinued because the pump system will flow more, have far less of a pressure drop and you can run alot more pressure into it.

    Both systems will work, just dont buy into the marketing.


    CM
    Last edited by coolingmist; 05-07-2011 at 08:20 AM.

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