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  1. #26
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    ^ Don't think that worked out right.. or I'm missing it.

  2. #27
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    First thing is first.

    This all started because one company released a test of their tune vs the tune of a competitor.

    This is not really a good strategy. Sometimes it has to be done but really should be avoided when tensions already exist.

    The better approach would be to call the competition and tell them that their tune is really aweful and maybe ask them if it's a potential mistake because EVERY tuner knows this can happen. It's happened to us where one of us has not been concentrating and have forgotton to change one or more vital maps. It happens to everyone at some point.

    We have done this before and we have earned nothing but respect from our competition and also the customer. In the long run being helpful and honest has actually given us more business because the competitor has referred work to us where they believe we do a better job and the customer spreads the word that we don't do dirty tactics and are not interested in just one thing.... money!

    Now, the backlash has not been so great and the fan club of both sides just makes things even worse.

    There's no point delving into the details of everything and who said this and who said that or who is wrong or right.

    I would personally not recommend a tuner shoot out of this type because of the following reasons:

    1) There is way too much monitoring required to make this a fair test
    2) The ECU is very sensitive to change
    3) The winner by 0.00005hp and 0.00005 lb.ft torque will suddenly be the best tuner around without the general public understanding that without even touching the ECU or car setup the figures can vary on the dyno because of conditions which you simply cannot control.
    4) The backlash afterwards!!

    I have another solution though and this is probably something that is more likely to happen.

    Everyone just go to an independent dyno shop which has nothing to do with anyone's dealer network and has zero interest in tuning BMW's. Doesn't have to be the same dyno shop.
    Everyone just do the following:

    1) Pre tune dyno tests - 5 runs which are all displayed
    2) Post tune dyno tests - 5 runs which are all displayed

    AFR's to be displayed for each run
    Ignition timing only to be displayed on pre tune (no one is going to agree to show you their ignition timing!)
    Correction factors to be clearly displayed
    Test to be strictly carried out on DYNOJET only! The reasons for this I can cover in detail.
    All runs to have the rpm pickup attached and WinPEP files to be available for public download

    Keeps it all nice and simple without any major drama.

    The main thing is that everyone just needs to keep of each others' back. There is no way any of the tuners in the US who are involved in these major bust ups are innocent.

    There are many things said behind the scenes and to customers. Apparently I will my head kicked in if I enter the US!! Not that I take that personally because we all say things when we get angry or misunderstand the intentions of the person saying what ever it is they said.

    Everyone just needs to chill out, stop pointing fingers and just get on with creating better products rather than wasting their damn time on this kinda BS!

    The amount of energy wasted on BS is amazing. If companies put their time instead somewhere else and avoid this then they will just get better and better.

    The fan club members of each tuner also need to chill out a little and if they don't then the companies should chill them out a little!

    We have a few people in the UK who just go on and on and on about us like we are some kinda gift from god. It does us no favours and we told them straight - we appreciate your support but this is not the way we like it and if they would like to continue coming to us then they need to be a little more laid back from now on.

    Lastly - to the tuners. Organic growth is the best type you can have. If you have a good product then people will find out about it naturally over time. You cannot force feed the market. It only works for a small period of time.

    Oh, and by the way.... I am not an angel myself. I have said things in the past (and recently) on some forums where I should have just stayed quiet. I have however realised where I am wrong and apologized to my competition either by email/PM or phone call. We all do dumb stuff..... it's how we deal with it that matters.

    I go make a coffee now. Click here to enlarge

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    I would personally not recommend a tuner shoot out of this type because of the following reasons:

    1) There is way too much monitoring required to make this a fair test
    2) The ECU is very sensitive to change
    3) The winner by 0.00005hp and 0.00005 lb.ft torque will suddenly be the best tuner around without the general public understanding that without even touching the ECU or car setup the figures can vary on the dyno because of conditions which you simply cannot control.
    4) The backlash afterwards!!
    1. The procedures selected were basically your own.
    2. Which is why clearing adaptations is necessary, right?
    3. I don't think people are quite that gullible to not see close results as well as suddenly ignore all the other data that would be collected.
    4. Yes, as in, the risk tuners have to take by participating.

    As a tuner, I see why you wouldn't want to.

    Please don't tell me there are so many darn variables that it would not be possible to make this fair. If it truly were that way, dyno testing in itself would basically be useless.

    Also, please don't forget Powerchip basically asked for this and now is nowhere to be found.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Everyone just go to an independent dyno shop which has nothing to do with anyone's dealer network and has zero interest in tuning BMW's.
    Yep, this is what we tried to do.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Lastly - to the tuners. Organic growth is the best type you can have. If you have a good product then people will find out about it naturally over time. You cannot force feed the market. It only works for a small period of time.
    I used to think this way. That is until I saw just how much business forums drive for myself and how companies use them to their advantage. Organic growth is dead, it is all about what results you have now and the volume of people you can reach. Word of mouth is practically irrelevant in the social media age, unless the opinion of 1 person means more to you than being able to form the opinion of hundreds of thousands instantaneously. I see some tuners who leverage this better than others so we are trying to level the playing field and although the game is still rigged we have at least freed a mind or two.

  4. #29
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    It can be made fair yes but is there anyone out there to be trusted enough to control things? No. We don't have an independant body to control things.

    What I am saying is everyone just go to the dyno of their choice in their own time and post up their results. Not a on the day tuner shootout.

    We can take part from the UK on a dynojet. I still cannot find any way to cheat this machine but I have not enough experience with them so far. By information so far is that it is incredibly difficult to do.

    Organic growth is something we follow on forums and word of mouth (on forums too). Our magazine features bring us a huge amount of people too. Our customer base is mainly the more down to earth people who like no BS marketing. It's been a slow slow growth but we are in no hurry to prove anything or to boost sales massively. We just don't care how fast things happen.
    The situation in the US is completely different to the UK. The market there is just like having something rammed down your throat constantly. The marketing is boring and cheesy with everyone with their hand up in the air....,...... ' look, look, we are the best' mixed with 'they others are all crap'.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    It can be made fair yes but is there anyone out there to be trusted enough to control things? No. We don't have an independant body to control things.
    This is the whole point, yes we do.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    What I am saying is everyone just go to the dyno of their choice in their own time and post up their results. Not a on the day tuner shootout
    I understand, but the purpose is to compare tuners not just collect dyno's.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    We can take part from the UK on a dynojet. I still cannot find any way to cheat this machine but I have not enough experience with them so far. By information so far is that it is incredibly difficult to do.
    I agree with you, this is why we always want Dynojets. I just prefer them, they have the largest base of results, and their numbers add up quite well to how the car will perform in the real worth.

    I know you guys would be willing to participate just the distance makes it difficult. I wouldn't worry about it, this clearly won't be happening.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Organic growth is something we follow on forums and word of mouth (on forums too). Our magazine features bring us a huge amount of people too. Our customer base is mainly the more down to earth people who like no BS marketing. It's been a slow slow growth but we are in no hurry to prove anything or to boost sales massively. We just don't care how fast things happen.
    The situation in the US is completely different to the UK. The market there is just like having something rammed down your throat constantly. The marketing is boring and cheesy with everyone with their hand up in the air....,...... ' look, look, we are the best' mixed with 'they others are all crap'.
    Magazines are a great way to go, also because of the large base they reach.

    The thing is, you guys aren't a company that wants to get growth the wrong way. I think you know yourself there are tuners are boards that will do some things that are not exactly reputable.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    We just don't care how fast things happen.
    The situation in the US is completely different to the UK. The market there is just like having something rammed down your throat constantly.
    Hahaha! That is actually a great way to put it.

  6. #31
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    That was a nice coffee Click here to enlarge

    OK, the dynojet thing - I also prefer them because the car is allowed to perform naturally on this machine but this is another subject which we will touch I am sure.

    Who is the independant body? The dyno shops just does the pulls, who resets adaptations? Who makes sure the temperatures are all equalised as much as possible for every tuner tuned test?

    You and everyone's dog knows that this will not happen so why not do this.

    Just get something done that will happen and then let people decide who they want their tuning done by?

    My suggestion of going to an independant dyno jet and showing 10 runs with WINPEP files is the best one in my opinion. No pressure. It will happen this way. As long as everyone concentrates on the gains achieved it's all good and I would recommend every tuner starts with a car that does NOT produce less than the average power of most stock cars on a dynojet.

    We did a car last week that started where it should be with just an Akrapovic exhaust fitted. Around 355hp with no tune. Nice healthy high figure. That was the best it made and then we tuned it to ....... well..... I will tell you later Click here to enlarge This is not the place for me to advertise what we can do.

    Thanks for seeing us for what we really are. Your right, we just don't want to grow in the wrong way. If you ever visit here you will immediately see one thing. We are more interested in the achievement than the money side of things. The money just comes anyway when your products are good and well designed/thought out.
    We have experienced the seriously ugly side of the US BMW tuning market. Threats of violence, getting loyal faithful followers to slate our products and an attempt to spread some stupid rumours. This has happened from 3 very well known tuners in the US market....... who we have never ever said anything against!

    You know why this happened? Because we release information that educates the end user. In my eyes, these are the most important people because it is their hard earned money that is at stake.

    Another coffee and back to header design!

  7. #32
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    Sal,

    Careful - OE did not release the before and after sheet as PC, nor even marked who it was on the sheet.

    The customer asked for the before and after print out....fine hes entitled tot hat. Gintani didn't label who the previous tune was.

    The customer posted it....fine. His sheet.

    The customer then spilled the beans who it was....fine. His call.

    I didn't see that sheet on OE's blog trying to dick around PC. Not his style. OE has been retuning PC files for years. I have personally seen LOTS more behind the scenes, even on my own dyno. Not a single one was posted on OE's behalf.

  8. #33
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    Fair enough Bren,

    I am not upto speed on what exactly went on and personally don't really care. If I have said anything that's not correct then I apologise.

    My point basically is that this sort of thing is a bit of a joke anyway. It could have been avoided. This is exactly the kind of nastiness we can all do without.

    If OE knew the car was tuned already (and they must have known because they must have read the file out) then it would have been far more sensible to first return the car back to stock and then apply their own tune.

    I am not pointing fingers at any one party btw, just saying the whole thing could have been completely avoided.

    I think Jeremy knows this and I doubt he will ever be doing it again just to avoid the massive headache!

  9. #34
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    Lots of customers want you to prove to them why they should spend the money with you over their current tune. I retune boosted cars all the time and gain 30whp/wtq over competitors tune without adjusting boost or leaning on the air/fuel. Most tuners don't understand Cam Timing/Phasing nor the concept of an ideal ignition timing curve. Almost every customer asks for this "comparison." In most cases, unless the previous shop is plastered all over the side of their vehicle in vinyl I ask them NOT to even tell me who did it first. And just allow me to retune the vehicle to my specs.

  10. #35
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    Easiest way is to just return the car back to stock first. It's not hard.

    We are currently doing loads and loads of E46 M3's that have been previously tuned. We will not dyno the cars with the tunes on them. We will always return back to stock and then use that as our baseline. Sometimes the customer does not even know it's been t

    Of course... the customers do notice a big difference on the road in most cases and there is nothing I can do at that point to stop them saying where they went...... but they don't have a dyno comparison. If that's not ethical I don't know what it.

    Your definately right on the cam timing. The majority don't understand it and probably never will.

  11. #36
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    Need more coffee.... spelling is going to $#@!!

  12. #37
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    prints and mirrors?

  13. #38
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    First off, the dyno idea will not work because all dynos are configured/calibrated differently, run at different ambient temperatures, at different altitudes, and using different gear runs. That being said, I think that there is much more to having the most hp/tq in a tune. Think about that powerband - the torque curve. Put the cars up against each other on the track, in the same place, at the same time, with the same air temperature and elevation. That's where you prove who is the best tuner.

  14. #39
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    the WOT maps are a poor thing to use to determine a 'best' tuner, imo.

    all a dyno comparo would prove is who's tune is the most aggressive

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
    the WOT maps are a poor thing to use to determine a 'best' tuner, imo.

    all a dyno comparo would prove is who's tune is the most aggressive
    No, a lot of claims were made that there was no way one tuner could make the gains they did, blah blah blah.

    A comparison on a car neither has ever touched would show how they adapt to the circumstances and which tuner is the best. It wouldn't just be about peak numbers but how they get there, the curve, air/fuel, spark, etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    You and everyone's dog knows that this will not happen so why not do this.
    This will not happen, but we tried. I just want to commend all our vendors for being willing to participate in at least some sort of comparison, not necessarily a dyno shootout.

    What happened here was a tuning house in decline tried to throw their weight around. It was thrown right back at them, and they buckled. That is pretty much that.

  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No, a lot of claims were made that there was no way one tuner could make the gains they did, blah blah blah.

    A comparison on a car neither has ever touched would show how they adapt to the circumstances and which tuner is the best. It wouldn't just be about peak numbers but how they get there, the curve, air/fuel, spark, etc.
    and...they'll only really touch the WOT maps, which i understand is one of the easier parts of tuning

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by black bnr32 Click here to enlarge
    and...they'll only really touch the WOT maps, which i understand is one of the easier parts of tuning
    Part throttle on these is tough but the dynos that were questioned keep in mind were WOT. So, logical to approach what Powerchip was calling for themselves, right?

  19. #44
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    We are holding an airport day mid-June.
    Here are the specs for the runway:

    Length: 5,012 ft
    Elevation: 822 feet ASL

    It will be turned into a track, Top Gear style.
    At the end of the day we will have roll ons, M5Board style.
    The airport is about 2 hours north-east of Detroit.

    PM me and you can do roll-on tuner testing beyond the 1/4 mile If you are serious enough.

    Good day.

    Here are some pics from the last event:

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    i can only confirm this event it will be great cant wait to see you there.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by catch_m3 Click here to enlarge
    The airport is about 2 hours north-east of Detroit.
    The thumb? You wouldn't catch me dead in that trashy hell.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Yomama69 Click here to enlarge
    The thumb? You wouldn't catch me dead in that trashy hell.
    It's in Canada. And the quality of cars that come out is pretty high.

  23. #48
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    Kitchener area?

  24. #49
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by catch_m3 Click here to enlarge
    We are holding an airport day mid-June.
    Here are the specs for the runway:

    Length: 5,012 ft
    Elevation: 822 feet ASL

    It will be turned into a track, Top Gear style.
    At the end of the day we will have roll ons, M5Board style.
    The airport is about 2 hours north-east of Detroit.

    PM me and you can do roll-on tuner testing beyond the 1/4 mile If you are serious enough.

    Good day.

    Here are some pics from the last event:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...5890_842-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...5887_383-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...5895_438-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...5937_737-1.jpg

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/images/im...5902_814-1.jpg
    Where are you located?

    Whoops, just saw Canada. That is awesome, pm me details please.

  25. #50
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    lol Joseph...

    Last I heard the OP in the m3 post thread (xchosin1x) changed his exhaust system. Don't you think that invalidates the test? We were trying to prove that SPECIFIC chart was not accurate. Take my name out of this unless you want me to address all of the malformed statements in your OP.

    Please continue with your games and manipulation. I know you have to create makeshift stories because your car is at Gintani, but I'm really tired of your clearly biased posts.

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