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  1. #1
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    Cog drive centrifugal supercharger setup for the street - Not a good idea?

    I've heard some conflicting opinions on this. Just doing some brainstorming and just want to hear the thoughts of those who know more about this.

    Why would a cog drive setup not be a good idea for the street? Or why would it work fine?

    In case anyone wants to know what a cog drive setup is, it's this:

    Click here to enlarge
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    Another pic of a cog drive Vortech:

    Click here to enlarge
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    I could be wrong, but does cog drive have more resistance in the whole rotating assembly compared to a serp-belt setup?

    I know it would be much harder to slip the belt as well with a cog drive (probably non exsistent) compared to a serp belt..

    and I think cog belts are louder? Given how the belt interfaces with the gear inside of sliding over the grooves? Im totally speculating at this point..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    I know it would be much harder to slip the belt as well with a cog drive (probably non exsistent) compared to a serp belt..
    Isn't that a good thing? Idea not to have belt slip? Cog drives and YSI's seem to be pretty popular together.
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    People use cog belts to eliminate belt slip. We were designing a cog setup for my car but decided against it due to noise. Also, with a cog setup, the pulleys have to spot on or there will be big issues. Not something we wanted to experiment with a few weeks from MFest. Muscle car guys use Cogs all day long.

    We spoke with a few engineers at Gates and they told us that with a proper 10 rib setup, the belt will not slip with the Ysi. We will soon find out as we are almost done with the pulley setup. It is very different from anything anyone has done on these M3's as far as Vortech blowers go.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    People use cog belts to eliminate belt slip. We were designing a cog setup for my car but decided against it due to noise. Also, with a cog setup, the pulleys have to spot on or there will be big issues. Not something we wanted to experiment with a few weeks from MFest. Muscle car guys use Cogs all day long.
    So if setup correctly, no problems?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    We spoke with a few engineers at Gates and they told us that with a proper 10 rib setup, the belt will not slip with the Ysi. We will soon find out as we are almost done with the pulley setup. It is very different from anything anyone has done on these M3's as far as Vortech blowers go.
    Whose car are you doing a YSI on?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So if setup correctly, no problems?
    That's what I have been told. I can not tell you for sure though. I don't think it would a very good decision for a street car. I was a little disappointed when I found out we were doing a cog setup for my car. I just don't like the idea. But it was all we had to go with. After speaking with the engineers at Gates though, we decided to stay with the serpentine belts. And to be honest, I don't see that belt slipping on my car. If it does slip, I will be amazed!

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Whose car are you doing a YSI on?
    Mine. Click here to enlarge

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    YSi

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    The reason people go cog is to reduce belt slippage to zero. Belt slippage occurs when trying to spin a big supercharger or trying to spin one very fast (high overdrive). Unless you are pushing over 25 psi then it's unnecessary. Lots of domestic owners use cog because they can, there's lots of room under domestic hoods and its cheap insurance when running high boost.

    Note of caution though, you will need to raise belt tension if you intend to run high boost with a serpentine belt, if you do you will be increasing the bending moment of the crank snout possibly breaking it off. The crank snout is undergoing rotation as well as a large orthogonal force due to the belt tension, combine these and this is a textbook example of high cycle fatigue failure modes. Food for thought.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    I don't think it would a very good decision for a street car. I was a little disappointed when I found out we were doing a cog setup for my car.
    Why though?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    Mine.
    And you don't think you will have belt slip issues?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Note of caution though, you will need to raise belt tension if you intend to run high boost with a serpentine belt, if you do you will be increasing the bending moment of the crank snout possibly breaking it off. The crank snout is undergoing rotation as well as a large orthogonal force due to the belt tension, combine these and this is a textbook example of high cycle fatigue failure modes. Food for thought.
    So.... wouldn't cog be safer? I understand it is is overkill for some cars, but if you can do it, why not?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    Fits no problem?

    What would you say about a YSI on my car? And would you stroke it if you could?
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    I don't like the idea mainly because of noise.

    The pulleys will be done tomorrow. I'll post some pictures in mu build thread and you will see why I am not worried.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    So.... wouldn't cog be safer? I understand it is is overkill for some cars, but if you can do it, why not?
    Cogs are safer, but the question is how far do you have to go out of your way to run that setup? Unless you are making insane boost, it may not be worth it if a serp can do the job.

    Although, if you find that you have room and it wont take time to implement, it is the better solution.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    I don't like the idea mainly because of noise.
    But if the noise does not bother you, is it better?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Cogs are safer, but the question is how far do you have to go out of your way to run that setup? Unless you are making insane boost, it may not be worth it if a serp can do the job.

    Although, if you find that you have room and it wont take time to implement, it is the better solution.
    Thanks, this is what I wanted to know.

    And I intend to make insane boost...
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    Look at this and tell me it doesn't get you hard:

    Wicked HP YSi Camaro Makes 896RWHP on 91 Octane Pump Gas

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    But if the noise does not bother you, is it better?
    I can't really say which is better. If the serpentine belt does not slip, is it better? Who knows. It all depends on what you want and what your willing to do to get there. We do not have the tools to machine a cog pulley for the crank and we were not about to try 2 weeks before mfest.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Thanks, this is what I wanted to know.

    And I intend to make insane boost...
    More food for thought.

    A centrifugal superchargers input is RPM. You spin it at X RPM and it will have a characteristic air mass flow vs pressure ratio. The problem is the S65 redlines very high, I am sure your shop is aware of this and will size pulleys accordingly. I just hate to hear people say "Oh I have the 3" pulley, that equates to bla bla 8 psi"

    No one size pulley equates to any amount of boost, it is all RPM dependant. A low revving motor that wants to make as much boost as a high revving motor will need more supercharger overdrive to get the impeller speed up.

    Anyway, youe engine goes to 8300 or whatever, I'll find out what the YSI max impeller speed is.
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    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by THATDONFC Click here to enlarge
    I don't like the idea mainly because of noise.

    The pulleys will be done tomorrow. I'll post some pictures in mu build thread and you will see why I am not worried.
    By the way, why not a Procharger setup?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Look at this and tell me it doesn't get you hard:

    Wicked HP YSi Camaro Makes 896RWHP on 91 Octane Pump Gas

    I saw that video when I decided to Ysi. that car sounds nuts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Anyway, youe engine goes to 8300 or whatever, I'll find out what the YSI max impeller speed is.
    It's 65000 rpm.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Anyway, youe engine goes to 8300 or whatever, I'll find out what the YSI max impeller speed is.
    65000 rpm

    EDIT: You beat me to it!

    Also, boost is dependent on how much air the engine will flow. More flow=less boost. Less boost does not always=less power.

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    So if you want to max the $#@! out youll need a 7.8:1 total overdrive. There is some overdrive built into the blower so youll have to find out how much. Then divide 7.8 by that and youll get the input overdrive required by the engine and from there your pulley diameters.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    So if you want to max the $#@! out youll need a 7.8:1 total overdrive. There is some overdrive built into the blower so youll have to find out how much. Then divide 7.8 by that and youll get the input overdrive required by the engine and from there your pulley diameters.
    This made my head explode.
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