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Viewing User Wall: BavarianBullet

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
But your only example is Le Mans when Audi was marketing that technology for its street cars and where fuel efficiency is very big.

I don't see GDI dominating in ALMS or really any other series? I mean, once again, is a hybrid diesel the ultimate race car setup because Audi is winning Le Mans with it now? Or is it just that setup gives them great efficiency for a 24 hour race?
I never said GDI would dominate anything in racing, I just said it was used in racing and early on it did well in Le Mans, and it's apparently getting closer and closer to F1 by the day.

What does well in any sanctioned racing series with a rulebook is a product of what's written into the rulebook which doesn't have so much to do with physics vs what the guys writing the rules want it to do. "

05-17-2013, 07:57 PM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by V8Bait View Post
There's a paper that used a turbo DI gm engine and compared DI to PFI for all sorts of things from knock to flame progression with different DI injection timing with the incoming air. I think there was a section on droplet size and how heat from compression affects vaporization when they compared ethanol blend fuels. I'll see if I can dig it up. It was a big dissertation from a MIT guy with the head of sloan as corresponding author. I like reading things from sloan. But pretty much the same as what you're saying. Issues to keep in mind but not necessarily game breaking. Time will tell, though. Valve float and airflow from all components need addressed first.
All good words. I'd rep you if I could but apparently I need to spread around a little more first.

I have the "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals" by John Heywood who could be the other author from Sloan. He's the man. I picked up the book probably 10+ years ago on the advice of a bud that actually attended class with Heywood at MIT. Book is still relevant after many years and not exactly cheap anymore ($225 on amazon, yikes!).

I agree with re the airflow in the head as well. A great turbo can mask some of the issues, but 4 digit HP is not going to be easy without head work. I'd love to port one up myself and thought about picking up a used N54 head but I don't have an N54 car anymore nor ready access to a flowbench. "

05-17-2013, 03:46 PM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by Flinchy View Post
N54 already operates in homogenous mode

near TDC is stratified

it's already 'started sooner'

and it can inject x many times per cycle (it's in the tech data for the injectors)... 4 or something?
You are correct. I was under the impression that the injection event was started really late but it's likely not. Homogenous is likely used as rumors persist that US NOx compliance and sulfur content of gasoline prohibit stratified mode. Tough to nail that one down though for BMW or any other OEM. "

05-17-2013, 01:20 PM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by V8Bait View Post
Good info. At high rpm DI has disadvantages to port fuel, but nothing sheer size, pressure and precise control can't counter of course. Nice specs, thanks!

I think a bigger issue for our DI at high rpm would probably be air fuel mixing, injecting too late at high rpm also lowers the window for the mixture to, well, mix. That will probably manifest more in very high powered cars at high rpm than what we have so far, but something else to keep in mind. Personally I love DI, as the technology progresses these side notes seem to matter less and less, which is a good thing.
There is some data in research publications out there re DI (GDI) and RPM concerns. I've attached one which speaks to it and it's publish date was 2009.Attachment 30672

To sum it up, there's a formula put forth in this paper that predicts max allowable droplet size to allow adequate time for evaporation, the thing a lot of people are concerned about. That formula is: 1291 / square root of RPM

If you refer to my post above detailing the average droplet size of the Conti DI Piezo injectors, they state droplet size is around 15um at stock fuel pressure. "

05-17-2013, 01:16 PM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Ok this is a good example but if it's so dominating why was GDI ditched and no longer used by Audi in Le Mans?

I really can't think of any racing series using direct injection especially with NA motors and high revs. The Audi motor was a twin turbo unit and Le Mans tends to emphasize efficiency more than raw power because the less pit stops the more distance you cover.
What teams go with in racing 99% of the time has to do with what the current rulebook allows because everyone wants to win. We could speculate all day why Audi stopped as you say but honestly I don't follow it that closely and wouldn't know.

I do agree that DI and it's efficiency gains are very important from a less pitstops is better perspective.

I'm surprised you didn't mention F1 because DI is being discussed as the next big thing in a lot of the news articles and forum posts I was able to find on Google. Yes it's not used yet, but if teams like Ferrari are saying they would likely use it in F1, they probably have done their homework on it's limitations. "

05-17-2013, 11:21 AM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
" Ok, here's my take on why DI works and I wouldn't fear running out of injector for practical purposes on an N54 before I figure the block will split in half or the crank walks and grenades everything (about 1200HP? WAG):

fig A Continental's Piezo Injector datasheet used in the N54 (takeaway: injector moves about 35 g/s of fuel and seems to scale practically linearly given the example of 14.5 mg/injection at .4ms PW)

Attachment 30658

Fueling example using goal of 1150CHP/1000WHP at 6000rpm:

6000rpm / 60sec = 100 Revs/sec "

05-17-2013, 11:13 AM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
How is it false when the window gets smaller as rpm rises?

Its false in the sense that its much harder or impossible for DI vs a decently sized port fuel injector. DI injectors have plenty of fuel overhead if you read the conti literature on them. About 500hp static flow per inector or enough fuel for about 3000hp in an N54- at stock fuel pressure. Yes you can't run them that hard but even at 1/3 dc, that's 1000hp. That's why I also said I'm more worried about block issues before running out of injector.

And how are you supposed to do that?
Code in the dme. Somewhere there is a table of injection start by CAD, rpm and prob several other factors. The dme at lower rpms and load uses multile injections already. Cake for proefi or equivalent when it arrives.

In what series?
24hr Le mans http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte.../html/4063.htm
Ferrari has mentioned it wants to do gdi in it's F1 car if they go turbo. Lots of rumor re F1 and gdi, i havent kept up with all of it. "

05-17-2013, 12:07 AM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
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Quote Originally Posted by Flinchy View Post
hmmmm if it comes with more than they're stating... that may not be a bad price then...
unless they plan on upping the price

might sent them an email just in case

wonder what's so hard about the springs, there's countless designs in other motors, all of which have solutions
It's just a question of resources etc. There's almost certainly an engine with similar springs. Some 4v heads have even used motorcycle parts.

We really need a camshaft expert to plug in the valve weight, cam profile and desired rpm to see what the oem springs can do and if you can add rpm and/or profile intensity and still control the valve. "

05-16-2013, 11:28 PM

BavarianBullet replied to the thread Upgraded Valves/retainers/keepers/springs anyone?.
" The DI doesnt work at high rpm arguement is false. GDI has been winning in serious racing for nearly 10yrs.

DI can inject a massive amount of fuel comared to a port injector. By design it is made to inject near TDC right before spark ignition and clearly does that just fine to a little over 7k right now in the n54 and over 8k in other production car engines.

All one has to do is start the injection sooner or add multiple injection events and you're fine, in theory. You just lose some of the cooling and other less important benefits but fueling is still there.

I think the block casting will have structural problems before we run out of injector. "

05-16-2013, 11:18 PM