• Vorsteiner poor product quality concerns, E92 M3 carbon diffuser compared to AC-Schnitzer

      CEC wheels recently posted pictures that caught our attention. They compared a Vorsteiner carbon fiber E92 M3 diffuser to AC-Schnitzer's diffuser and the quality difference is startling. This is the not the first time we have heard concerns about poor Vorsteiner quality. For a company willing to charge $25k for a widebody kit the contrast here between the two pieces with the Vorsteiner diffuser showing scratches and poor plastic construction is pretty extreme. Take a look at the pictures and decide for yourself.


      AC Schnitzer (TOP) Vorsteiner (Bottom)



      AC Schnitzer (Full Carbon Fiber Construction)



      Vorsteiner (DVWP & Carbon Fiber - dry vacuum woven plastic)



      AC Schnitzer



      Vorsteiner



      AC Schnitzer



      Vorsteiner

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Vorsteiner poor product quality concerns, E92 M3 carbon diffuser compared to AC-Schnitzer started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 44 Comments
      1. deemo319's Avatar
        deemo319 -
        That is pretty glaring. AC Schnitzer is the biggest BMW aftermarket company in the world. The quality that is inherent in their products is well known. I am aware of Vorsteiner but have neither bought or sold any of it's products. Does Vorsteiner stand behind what they sell? And with quality issues, customers still purchase their products? In the aftermarket, the variances between products very greatly so buyer beware. You still generally get what you pay for.
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        I'm not surprised at all, my homie waited 8 months for a diffuser for his e46 m3, and it didnt even fit right, and had so many left over stuff on the sides. it was just hideous. his ebay diffuser (modbargains) fit AND looked better than the vorsteiner.

        vorsteiner has nice stuff, but you have to tell them you're like a promoter for a site and sponsoring them. or else it will be full of $#@!.
      1. 654's Avatar
        654 -
        Vorsteiner vented hood for e92 non-M is another good example of poor fit.
      1. deemo319's Avatar
        deemo319 -
        If you guys have seen this first hand, then that is just terrible. So how do they remain in business with shoddy parts?
      1. DarkPhantom's Avatar
        DarkPhantom -
        Oh wow, outrageous prices and outrageous build quality too...I haven't bought anything from them. I wonder if all their products are like this o_O
      1. dOpEdUpM3's Avatar
        dOpEdUpM3 -
        Damn, thats WAK! So was it true they import everything from China?
      1. SSDD's Avatar
        SSDD -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dOpEdUpM3 Click here to enlarge
        Damn, thats WAK! So was it true they import everything from China?
        Negs. They at least have a factory in SoCal. I don't see myself purchasing anything from Vorsteiner, but here is a another view on their products (by a reseller).

        Click here to enlarge
        *At this stage in the game, some parts are rejected. I actually couldn't figure out what was wrong with this part, but Vorsteiner's quality control people showed me. The weave is bunched. Sometimes, if this happens to a hood, Vorsteiner will primer the carbon fiber and offer it at the DVWP price to a customer who wants light weight but doesn't want to see carbon fiber. In the case of a diffuser, where everyone wants carbon fiber, the part is destroyed. Their motto is, after all, "Perfection Does Not Compromise"...
        original thread
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by deemo319 Click here to enlarge
        If you guys have seen this first hand, then that is just terrible. So how do they remain in business with shoddy parts?
        Forum advertising and good promotional work.

        VF promotes their widebody as does Jlevi and others. Their widebody is high quality by all accounts but it obviously is just a halo effect and does not speak well to the quality of their other parts.

        They have fanboys who buy into the brand.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dOpEdUpM3 Click here to enlarge
        Damn, thats WAK! So was it true they import everything from China?
        They have been pretty secretive honestly. An office in the US does not mean they don't deal with China or some Asian supplier for parts.
      1. SSDD's Avatar
        SSDD -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        They have been pretty secretive honestly. An office in the US does not mean they don't deal with China or some Asian supplier for parts.
        Again I am no expert, but there are a few threads detailing their production process on their parts (proving that at a minimum, some are produced in house).

        IV. Factory
        Vorsteiner is secretive about their production process - for good reason. It is this production process that makes their parts superior quality, strength, fitment, and weight. Nonetheless, here is an overview.

        Click here to enlarge
        *This is a Porsche Panamera turbo. The front is covered with a "Splash Mould" - a temporary mould used to make the first part. Vorsteiner modifies the OEM bumper heavily in order to make this mould, then makes the permanent mould out of a perfect Vorsteiner bumper (that's what the splash mould is for). It's a time and labor intensive process, but it's worth it. This car has to sit at Vorsteiner for weeks on end.

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        *This is a NoMex Honeycomb sandwich core. It sounds like a delicious dessert, but in reality, it is a high-tech material used in aerospace and formula 1 racing. NoMex makes the components extremely rigid, while maintaining incredibly light weight. It's also UNBELIEVABLY expensive. Vorsteiner uses NoMex Honeycomb in a number of their products including hoods and rear wings to maximize structural rigidity.

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        *This is what pre-preg carbon fiber looks like in it's raw form. Pre-preg carbon is impregnated with the resin so there is no brushing of epoxy required. *This process prevents the weave from getting stretched or condensed and prevents excess resin from ruining the end product. This has drastically reduced rejection rates, significantly improving delivery times.

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        *This is raw uni-directional carbon fiber used in certain areas of their parts where extra strength is required.. If you thought normal carbon fiber was expensive - think again. Uni-directional carbon fiber is far and away one of the lightest carbon fiber materials on the market, aside from nanocarbon.

        Click here to enlarge
        *Pallet of raw materials awaiting use in production. Miscellaneous vacuum bags and sealer fabric.

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        *This is the top portion of a bootlid, inside of a vacuum bag, being loaded into an autoclave. The hose there is sucking out all of the air, creating pressure on the pre-preg carbon fiber sheet, and forcing excess resin to the periphery. The fuzzy white stuff on the right hand side is called breather-fabric used in the auto clave process.

        Click here to enlarge
        *Here's a bootlid a little further along in the process, ready to come out of the autoclave (which is why we're able to take pictures of it… I'm not fireproof, sorry guys). The vacuum hoses have been removed, but you can still see the 4 hoses on the bottom. They're not connected to the bootlid itself, they're connected to the under-tray. These don't vacuum air out; they pump nitrogen in. The autoclave must be further pressurized during the extreme heating process (which cures the resin already present in the fiber), and using nitrogen prevents combustion. It's a safety thing.

        Click here to enlarge
        *This is the top half of an X6M hood, waiting for vacuum bagging. The top half is made independently from the bottom half, and they are fused together later. This is similar to how the McLaren F1's body was made in many pieces and fused together later in the process.

        Click here to enlarge
        *Here you can see how perfectly the weave is laid in the mould for the X6M hood. This is a painstaking process, because if they screw up the weave, that piece of ultra-expensive carbon fiber is ruined. They have to use it for inner-pieces of another part, because cosmetically it's damaged. (Vorsteiner is really serious about eco-friendliness, and they don't waste if they can avoid it).

        Click here to enlarge
        *Inside of a hollow GTRS3 widebody skirt being reinforced with carbon fiber

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        *Carbon fiber reinforcement inside of a side skirt (again)

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        *The inside of a Porsche wing spoiler… note the perfect weave again

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        *Further back. This is half of the spoiler, the other half will be fused on later.

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        *This is how parts look when they come out of the mould. Still a lot of finishing to be done before they're perfect. This specific part is a helmet for famous pro-skater Bucky Lasek.

        Click here to enlarge
        *The inside of Bucky's helmet is Kevlar which is much more flexible and pliable than Carbon Fiber. *Reinforcing with Kevlar protects Bucky, in the same way a Kevlar vest protects police officers.

        Click here to enlarge
        *The thing about Kevlar is, it's really hard to use. It doesn't like to bond or adhere to anything, even carbon fiber. For this reason, in automotive, where you aren't directly protecting a human body inches away, they usually use carbon kevlar. This is 50% carbon, which allows the composite to laminate and adhere easier, and 50% Kevlar, which gives you some of the benefits of Kevlar.

        Click here to enlarge
        *It also looks sweet, like a bumblebee Click here to enlarge

        OK, back on topic..

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        *Parts coming out of the mould, need finishing

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        *At this stage in the game, some parts are rejected. I actually couldn't figure out what was wrong with this part, but Vorsteiner's quality control people showed me. The weave is bunched. Sometimes, if this happens to a hood, Vorsteiner will primer the carbon fiber and offer it at the DVWP price to a customer who wants light weight but doesn't want to see carbon fiber. In the case of a diffuser, where everyone wants carbon fiber, the part is destroyed. Their motto is, after all, "Perfection Does Not Compromise"...

        Click here to enlarge
        *This is the grinding room, with an E46 M3 Cabriolet bootlid that has just come out of the mould and had the vacuum bags removed. They have done their job: all of the excess resin has been forced away from the part. Now, all that has to be done to remove it is some simple grinding.

        Click here to enlarge
        *Another thing that happens in the grinding room is cutting and grinding the holes necessary for your car. This M3 hood, for example, needs the holes cut for the OEM hood vents, as well as the holes for the slats of the aftermarket vents. That happens during grinding. It is done painstakingly by hand.

        Click here to enlarge
        *Once grinding is complete, the parts head into the paint booth. There, they get either a glossy or a matte clear coat, which makes them look better and protects them from UV rays.

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        *This hood got the matte treatment

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        *Sorry, I still can't get enough of that Matte. (I had it on my 335i and loved it)
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SSDD Click here to enlarge
        Again I am no expert, but there are a few threads detailing their production process on their parts (proving that at a minimum, some are produced in house).
        Yes, exactly. Some are produced in house and notice they are pimping that $25k body kit whose quality BETTER be good.

        Some are produced in house. All though? Don't think so, which is the reason we didn't see anything up until they could show their new facility.
      1. SSDD's Avatar
        SSDD -
        Personally I'd like to see of the the Arkym stuff in person or some good detail shots. I think they are in the same price bracket, but provide a better quality product
      1. BattaM3's Avatar
        BattaM3 -
        Hit or miss! Some of there product comes perfect I've had troubles
        always. My car now need a complete redo from wear and tear. Looking forward to what HPF is
        doing with technocraft.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BattaM3 Click here to enlarge
        Hit or miss! Some of there product comes perfect I've had troubles
        always. My car now need a complete redo from wear and tear. Looking forward to what HPF is
        doing with technocraft.
        From what I have heard from our users and seen of the technocraft products they are HIGH quality. Also high priced but they seem worth it.
      1. BattaM3's Avatar
        BattaM3 -
        I pretty sure them and hpf are working on hoods,trunks,etc. Pretty much everthing.
      1. DarkPhantom's Avatar
        DarkPhantom -
        Pretty extensive process up there, but again, I don't know much about the process to judge...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Earlier this month, we brought you an article that highlighted concerns with the quality of Vorsteiner products. We felt in that article that perhaps the cheaper products did not reflect the quality of the $25k E92 M3 GTRS3 widebody kit. We were recently made aware of photos highlighting flaws in the GTRS3 kit and have posted those photos here.

        C&C Collision came out to defend these "imperfections" stating these are pretty normal. It is important to note that C&C Collision, who is a great bodyshop, has had a deal with Vorsteiner to install these kits and the two companies do a bit of business together:

        The custom matte green paint work and installation has been exclusively performed by C&C Collision based out of Pasadena, California. C&C Collision Inc. has also been selected as the exclusive installer for the GTRS3 kit within North America.
        Please look at the photos and draw your own conclusion.

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      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        So they are claiming their parts are now made in an autoclave on all the forums. Jlevi visited their production facility, where is the pics of the autoclave.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        So they are claiming their parts are now made in an autoclave on all the forums. Jlevi visited their production facility, where is the pics of the autoclave.
        Jlevi's little trip was a marketing tool as he carries their products.

        Don't know where the pics of the autoclave are, good question.
      1. dzenno@PTF's Avatar
        dzenno@PTF -
        Horror!