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    • S65 V8 Rod Bearing Failure in Drew's Gintani Supercharged M3 - covered under Gintani warranty

      I have been reluctant to post about this earlier as I wanted to give Gintani ample time to look at the engine to try and determine what happened before I posted. We have an idea what caused it but currently the motor has not been broken down to do a full inspection. Given the current drama / speculation on the forums, I felt, along with Gintani, that we should post now and let everyone know that a failure did occur on my car, and then follow up later when we have more solid detailed information. As of now I know of no other Gintani car that has had a failure, but mine.

      The engine had been making a slight ticking noise on the passenger side wheel well for about a month before the failure, it sounded like an exhaust leak, but it is difficult to pinpoint noises on this engine. It appeared to have been a bad rod bearing that was causing the noise. Eventually the bearing failed, the rod seized onto the crank shaft, broke and one half came out the side of the block. That is all I currently know for certain, when Gintani tears the motor down they can investigate further to try and pinpoint exactly what it was, then post pictures, and a more accurate detailed analysis. It appears though that the Active Autowerke car that failed, is very similar in nature to this failure.

      A few things to point out -

      1. I've been running 9psi for over 10K miles on the motor, currently no other kit runs this much boost.
      2. When I dynoed the car, and removed the air filter, it hit 11psi, and you can see on the dyno a huge dip up top, which could be detonation.
      3. The seals on my 1st blower blew out while doing some spirited driving, eventually the car ran out of oil, this could have damaged the bearing.
      4. Other 2008 motors have been torn down and found to have wear on the rod bearings that could have eventually failed as mine did.

      The current status is that a long block is on it's way, Gintani is covering the cost of the motor and all labor, which is above and beyond what most companies would do. I am extremely thankful to them for doing so, they have always taken care of me. Right now my plans are that I am going to keep the kit, but most likely will lower the boost, hopefully I will be up and running soon, with more dyno's, video's, vbox data, etc.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Rod Bearing Failure... started by DLSJ5 View original post
      Comments 132 Comments
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Bud, some '09 cars were built in '08. From what I have read, the switch was made AFTER '08.

        And it begins, detonation over extended periods of time? So the stock cars that failed were detonating? Please, a faulty rod bearing can cause a rod bearing failure or else how do you explain all the failures being '08 builds that are tied to this are everything from SC'd, stroked, to stock?
        It's not 100% linked to detonation, but it CAN cause rod bearing failure. When a cylinder experiences it, it hammers down on the piston, rod and the half of the bearing attached to the big end. When it does thIs, it beats the bearing slightly out of round, kind of like bending a wheel. Now the oil film that the bearing rides on gets scrapedoff by the bearing on every rotation, and starts to take metal off the bearing....over time it wears away, develops play(which is the knocking noise you hear), the oil pressure drops down because of the huge gap now, and the bearing overheats and welds itself to the crank...and bye bye block.

        I'm not saying all the M3s did this, but in this case it prolly was a combination of the 3.
      1. BrenM3's Avatar
        BrenM3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
        Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )
        Not necessarily, it can be mostly oil starvation issues. And we know how sensitive the S54/S65 is to oil. Hammering the rod bearing would be VERY easy to see if it was detonation - which I highly doubt based on what I've seen of the ignition timing used, and how sensitive the factory DME is. It's very hard to blow these cars up from abuse.

        You're not exactly an engine builder M33.
      1. spdu4ea's Avatar
        spdu4ea -
        Detonation is a possibility, but it would be extraordinarily rare for detonation to beat a rod bearing into submission without also doing damage elsewhere. We'll just have to wait until the engine is disassembled to know for sure.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        Drew put a solid 10k boosted miles on his car if it were a bearing i think would have let go a long time ago , that's why i'm leaning towards the detonation , running high boost on these motors is scary especially if the tune is not spot on ..
        Are you kidding me? If these let go instantly don't you think there would have been a recall?

        Didn't the S54 have to change bearings? Did they all fail? No. Did some? Yes. Did some with Boost? Yes. Did some without boost? Yes.

        You are making dangerous suggestions based on nothing when the body of evidence does not remotely correlate. You need to be held accountable for these types of posts.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
        Detonation is a possibility, but it would be extraordinarily rare for detonation to beat a rod bearing into submission without also doing damage elsewhere. We'll just have to wait until the engine is disassembled to know for sure.
        Exactly.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
        Not necessarily, it can be mostly oil starvation issues. And we know how sensitive the S54/S65 is to oil. Hammering the rod bearing would be VERY easy to see if it was detonation - which I highly doubt based on what I've seen of the ignition timing used, and how sensitive the factory DME is. It's very hard to blow these cars up from abuse.
        The oil starvation issue is key from my perspective especially now that you highlighted how it can have an effect on the rod bearings.

        Aren't there oil starvation issues with the S65 to begin with? I was speaking with someone about this today.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        It's not 100% linked to detonation, but it CAN cause rod bearing failure. When a cylinder experiences it, it hammers down on the piston, rod and the half of the bearing attached to the big end. When it does thIs, it beats the bearing slightly out of round, kind of like bending a wheel. Now the oil film that the bearing rides on gets scrapedoff by the bearing on every rotation, and starts to take metal off the bearing....over time it wears away, develops play(which is the knocking noise you hear), the oil pressure drops down because of the huge gap now, and the bearing overheats and welds itself to the crank...and bye bye block.

        I'm not saying all the M3s did this, but in this case it prolly was a combination of the 3.
        I prefer not to speculate but what we do know is BMW changed the rod bearings and there have been a string of failures attributed to rod bearings in cars ranging from SC'd, to stroked, to stock that were running the early rod bearings used. That leads me to the conclusion it is a faulty part.

        There is more to this but I have to be careful...
      1. BrenM3's Avatar
        BrenM3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
        Detonation is a possibility, but it would be extraordinarily rare for detonation to beat a rod bearing into submission without also doing damage elsewhere. We'll just have to wait until the engine is disassembled to know for sure.
        Bingo it will be very easy to see on the rod bearing itself - along with the tops of the piston/piston rings. A compression test result would help too. All which I'm sure will be completed.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BrenM3 Click here to enlarge
        Bingo it will be very easy to see on the rod bearing itself - along with the tops of the piston/piston rings. A compression test result would help too. All which I'm sure will be completed.
        From what Gintani told me today, they intend to be as open with this as possible as there is nothing to hide. I quickly jumped in to say I would document every piece of the motor as it was being disassembled with high resolution pics for everyone. They did not seem to be opposed to the idea and Drew is not hiding anything either.

        So what I can tell everyone is you will see inside the motor.
      1. 3Fest's Avatar
        3Fest -
        That sucks. In for the pics. I'm sure you'll be back up and running in no time!!
      1. JonMartin's Avatar
        JonMartin -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
        Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )
        There you have it M33 said it so it must be true....Tell me how you know this since you haven't seen the motor? Is that some kind of special skill you were given at birth? I wouldn't make bold statements like this without knowing for sure and you don't so you shouldn't state it as fact bud.
      1. VetteFish's Avatar
        VetteFish -
        Drew, very unfortunate to hear. 2007 was a year for our C6Z's that is known to have weak rod bearings as well, there have been many accounts of failures in stock cars...ya never know. The fact that your car has had 10k of POWERFUL boosted miles is great, you really drove that car how it should and unfortunately something happened. The fact that Gintani is covering the cost is incredible. When I blew my boosted motor in my C5 Z06 I was left in the dust, had to go to a new shop, and shell out thousands and thousands of dollars to be back on the road again. I give both yourself and the guys at Gintani a lot of respect for how the situation is being handled. I'm sure you will be back on the road in knowtime with tricks up your sleeve giving me runs for my money Click here to enlarge
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 .
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Bud, some '09 cars were built in '08. From what I have read, the switch was made AFTER '08.
        My sister's 08 M3 is a DCT. I believe she ordered it the last month of 08 production.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M3_WC Click here to enlarge
        My sister's 08 M3 is a DCT. I believe she ordered it the last month of 08 production.
        My M3 is an '08 build as well and DCT, how is that possible M33?
      1. DLSJ5's Avatar
        DLSJ5 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        They did not make DCT cars in 08 only 09 . Drews car is a DCT Click here to enlarge
        Jamie,

        The same statement was brought up on M3forum, a statement which I have never heard before from anyone but you and this other poster. This guy is named "CP3" which I was sure was Pencilgeek, or is this you! I'm kidding of course, but I do find it odd that you both would post this, are you chatting about this with CP3? Click here to enlarge

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CP3 Click here to enlarge
        4. I guess by saying that "other 2008" motors Drew is implying that his car is a 2008 also but if I recall he has a DCT car which was only available in 2009 and beyond.
        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=148


        My response -

        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=155

        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M33 Click here to enlarge
        Rod bearing is a failure caused by detonation over extended periods of time ( it has happened to my 02 APR mototrsport built 1.8t GTi runing 30psi 3 times and i gave up on that piece of crap )
        It is a possibility, but like others pointed out, normally other things go first.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
        Jamie,

        The same statement was brought up on M3forum, a statement which I have never heard before from anyone but you and this other poster. This guy is named "CP3" which I was sure was Pencilgeek, or is this you! I'm kidding of course, but I do find it odd that you both would post this, are you chatting about this with CP3? Click here to enlarge



        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=148

        My response -

        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=155
        Yes, that is Robert.

        I'm curious, how is this Gintani's website again? Gintani wasn't even one of the first sponsors here. Really it is OE Tuning's involvement and support that makes Gintani's sponsorship possible as Gintani isn't all that active on forums.

        Secondly, what exactly is wrong with the title? Rod bearing failure and as stated there is complete transparency here with the desire to show everything in the motor on disassembly. What else could people possibly want? The old man tries too hard, where are the pics of his motors internals?
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DLSJ5 Click here to enlarge
        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=148

        My response -

        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=155
        I'm also amazed not a single one of those people realizes the video had the address wrong, yet they still believe it, unbelievable that people can be so stupid and easily manipulated.
      1. JonMartin's Avatar
        JonMartin -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I'm also amazed not a single one of those people realizes the video had the address wrong, yet they still believe it, unbelievable that people can be so stupid and easily manipulated.
        Ya its friggin amazing... They all jumped on the story like stink on $#@!.

        I addressed the issue with my response here
        http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...&postcount=161
      1. PEI330Ci's Avatar
        PEI330Ci -
        Drew,

        Sorry to hear...PITA but you got off lucky in more ways than one.

        A few years ago a BMWCCA member by the name of John Holder had a rod bearing failure on his S54 at a rather high speed down a straight away, (Race track) and did an enourmous amount of damage to the car. (I think the bill totalled nearly $30k...and he didn't hit anything...although he flew over a water drainage ditch) Imagine having a rod failure at high speed, having the oil from the block coat the rear tires.....and well...you know the story from there.

        A very visual example of this can be seen on youtube from a certain car doing a top speed run in the "Silver State Classic".

        I look forward to seeing a more in depth analysis of the failure, certainly for learning, and not to point any figures. I think the way this thing has been handled so far has been pretty classy by all parties.
      1. gixxer_kidd's Avatar
        gixxer_kidd -
        Drew, thanks for sharing this with the community. Thumbs up to you for being honest and transparent with all this and Gintani for going above and beyond. Hope you get back up and running soon.

        Other than the ticking noise that you mentioned, were there any other signs? I'm sure you'll gain more insight once they open up the motor, but is there anything preventative that we could do?

        I have to admit, this makes me nervous, since I just installed an SC on my 08. I was not planning on installing gauges but now you have me thinking about installing some to keep things in check.