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    • The other side of the story regarding Bavarian Solutions and Herrubermensch's (Peter's) forced induction M5 build/motor issues


      Here is the other side of the story that includes pieces from Bavarian Solutions perspective. This information was sent to BimmerBoost anonymously and we will present the information to you to come to your own conclusion. Thus far, Bavarian Solutions has been relatively quiet while many have taken the owners side some having jumped to conclusions. What we present here is inside information to balance out what was been written thus far and provide additional insight which members have requested.

      The owner of the car, Peter, goes by the name Herrubermensch and is a financial/bankruptcy attorney. What we have learned is the owner has bluffed about the motor being disassembled for "forensic" evidence and the car is currently sitting as is at Northeast Motorsports. The owner has been difficult to please and has thrown his weight around as an "attorney" from the beginning. His deal for the built motor was, well, quite the deal. How good? Almost cost on parts and very little on discounted labor. He was in constant communication with Dave at Bavarian Solutions and received quick responses to all of his frequent inquiries, any time of day. We have been told he is difficult to please and demands things to be done his way. Some would describe this as suffering from "attorney syndrome." He makes it very clear to everyone he is an attorney, how important his firm is, how much they bill, etc.

      Now, it is true the first built motor was blown and Bavarian Solutions rebuilt it. However, the cause of the failure has been determined to be a defective bank one VANOS unit. Mike from NorthEast Motorsports verified that the defect caused a binding issue. It would seem Peter (the owner of the car in question) agrees with this assessment. When the motor was spun by hand it would lock and when this happens it causes the pistons to collide with the valves which is obviously not a good thing. Bavarian Solutions received blame for this motor although it is my opinion it should be directed at Dr. Vanos. Bavarian Solutions has stayed out of it and is not slinging mud at anyone even though they are taking heat for a failure caused by something which was not their responsibility.

      The second failure is either a result of the tuner or the installation. We do not definitively know yet as the motor has not been taken apart to determine the point of failure. We will not delve into the pricing and such but the second motor was not done for free and that is the most we can say about that. Due to the VANOS issue not being sorted they decided not to install it on the second motor. There are a couple videos on M5board that show the motor running fine prior to the tuning. There was nothing wrong with the motor at this point except for a rough idle obviously due to the cams not being calibrated. When the oil was analyzed from the second failure after the tuning, there was no copper in it which has to do with the bearings. There was only aluminum and since Bavarian Solutions uses these pistons in their forced induction builds they are familiar what the results look like due to a piston failure from lack of fuel which is what they believe accounts for the aluminum in the oil.

      The tuner was the mysterious Mr. X who has a reputation as a guru. However, why the need for anonymity? All other tuners do not hide behind a secret name. What is the reason for it here? Well, Mr. X's amazing abilities may be a bit overblown. There are two high-dollar failures in South Africa that are attributed to him and he quickly vanished from the scene after the failures, smart move when dealing with big dollar builds in South Africa. This is an area where the anonymity works in his favor as there is apparently a price on his head and a warrant seeking his arrest. There happen to also be a few clients in Puerto Rico who are not too happy with his work. Now the motor ran fine before it was tuned and during the tuning process they heard a loud pop which is documented and they pushed forward.

      So what is the true story here? Well, you decide, but our job is to provide you all the pieces. The first failure it would not appear was the fault of Bavarian Solutions and all parties decided to stay away from the VANOS for a reason it would seem. No copper in the oil of the second failure shows it likely was not a build issue. Dave the owner of Bavarian Solutions offered to take the motor apart at his cost to determine the cause of failure. That speaks of confidence in the build and of a courtesy to the customer even though Bavarian Solutions does not have to do this by any means. In addition, Dave offered to do this disassembly in front of Peter with any witnesses he wished to show there was nothing to hide. Peter has not taken Bavarian Solutions up on this and instead has decided to flaunt his legal muscle.

      We will keep you updated on any additional developments but this is where things currently stand.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Bavarian Solutions and Herrubermensch's (Peter) M5 forced induction build - blown motor started by BigM62 View original post
      Comments 343 Comments
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BigM62 Click here to enlarge
        I think this a fair and honest assessment of the situation. However, from Peter's point of view, this hardly matters. I believe most here just want Peter to have a awesome running M5 for the community to embrace. Too bad we are such a litigious society where sue first seems to be the norm. Either way, I commend Peter and Sticky on a very interesting and informative thread.
        I think your assessment of the assessment if quite good Click here to enlarge

        Most important thing would be to have a strong running forced induction S62 (as there really aren't many) which would be great to have in the community. This will get settled, we are way too litigious of a society and it is only increasing as sad as that is.
      1. herrubermensch's Avatar
        herrubermensch -
        Detente! Stay tuned. VAC is supposed to have it all analyzed and report back by week end!

        And just to be clear, and I am a huge S62 enthusiast. I love the technology of the engine and think it can be improved upon. (Dave and I actually had talked at length about manufacturing custom upgrades for the S62 chain tensioners and guides, which are notorious failure items. Too bad all of that has fallen by the wayside.) For my next build, I intend to build a barely streetable, primarily tracked E46 M3 with an S62. Lots of intelligence already in the can on that transplant.

        --Peter
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by herrubermensch Click here to enlarge
        Detente! Stay tuned. VAC is supposed to have it all analyzed and report back by week end!
        This is great but I'm hoping someone not associated with VAC will be there to monitor it or take pictures.
      1. THATDONFC's Avatar
        THATDONFC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by herrubermensch Click here to enlarge
        For my next build, I intend to build a barely streetable, primarily tracked E46 M3 with an S62. Lots of intelligence already in the can on that transplant.

        --Peter
        I can't wait to see this! I almost did this with my car since we have an s62 here at the shop.
      1. herrubermensch's Avatar
        herrubermensch -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        This is great but I'm hoping someone not associated with VAC will be there to monitor it or take pictures.
        Dave or his designee is welcome to be present.

        --Peter
      1. rt turbo's Avatar
        rt turbo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        Just a further note, Dirt11's heads were done by VAC...and have been off twice since to fix issues from that work.

        Also I have never heard of an aluminum piston eating steel sleeves...aluminum is a softer metal, it would beat itself senseless first before eating a sleeve.

        I have heard many an engine with piston slap, and it usually just takes out the rings if it's bad enough...never eaten a sleeve.

        There is ferrous metal in the pan, but do you know how many other parts in the engine are steel as well that could possibly fail?

        The full story is not here...and I would suggest Dave tearing it down as he has nothing to lose. As Sticky said, bringing it to VAC allows them to say whatever to sweeten the case. Not saying they will but I have seen it done before.
        EXACTLY! The only thing to eat an iron sleeve is going to be a piston ring. It was stated first then it ran fine, then poped, then didnt run fine. SOunds similar to a broken a ring land, then kept driving it, and it mashed against the cylinder wall and tore up some iron.

        At this point, the only way I could see it being Bav Sols fault is that they had incorrect piston to wall clearances and they expanded into the walls, or left too much space between after full warm up and they started tortioning side to side. Its not likely AT ALL that there is no aluminum in this oil as the owner states. In fact, it would likely be the most present metal in there. Then comes the matter of how they would have gottin the wall clearances wrong, or what caused the pistons to expand too much (if that happened). Maybe its like my motor and they forgot oil squirters (I doubt that). I just dont see them making either mistakes.

        Also, if it was truely not spinning freely as you now say Peter, why in the hell would you start to tune her? WTF.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
        Also, if it was truely not spinning freely as you now say Peter, why in the hell would you start to tune her?
        This confuses me as well. Any decent tuner would have said I don't think so and stepped away. It had to be spinning...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by herrubermensch Click here to enlarge
        Dave or his designee is welcome to be present.

        --Peter
        If that is not possible for whatever reason, will we be able to count on documentation of the internals?
      1. DallasM5's Avatar
        DallasM5 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If that is not possible for whatever reason, will we be able to count on documentation of the internals?
        you really have a hard on for bavarian destruction, i dont think there's anyway to win with you.

        and i thought i was ignorant.
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasM5 Click here to enlarge
        you really have a hard on for bavarian destruction, i dont think there's anyway to win with you.

        and i thought i was ignorant.
        He has a perfectly valid question. If Dave is not present what is to say Peter or VAC says anything they want if the find out it was tuning related and try to cover it up?

        I'm not saying they would but like I said before I have seen some expensive disasters in other places and the shop blamed the previous one for all the mistakes even though it was a faulty rod that just let go..guy did it to save face on his expensive Porsche build at the expense of the previous shop, even though they did nothing wrong.
      1. herrubermensch's Avatar
        herrubermensch -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rt turbo Click here to enlarge
        Also, if it was truely not spinning freely as you now say Peter, why in the hell would you start to tune her? WTF.
        It did not manifest the phenomenon until it was on the dyno and we started to obtain a baseline. Let's be clear. I drove it very conservatively from NEM to Rogue. It did not drive well at all, though I suspected that was because the idle had not been adjusted to deal with the vanos delete. Then we put it on the dyno. We did something like 5-6 pulls before the "pop." On each pull, from the very first one, something was keeping the engine from spinning freely, particularly beyond 6600 rpm. There was this increasing restriction on the engine's ability to spin. And although it subsequently was determined to be most pronounced in cylinder 5, it was present in ALL cylinders. The only tuning adjustments we had time to make (this all took place in less than an hour) were for idle quality. You guys keep saying "it ran fine, then it didn't." That's incorrect, and I do not know why you think you know when you weren't there. Ask Ben at Rogue Engineering if you want some input. He was in the car throughout the process, interacting with Mr. X.

        If a ring land broke during what happened, then something horribly was wrong with the engine--its design or machining--from the get-go because absolutely NOTHING took place during the tuning that could account for such a phenomenon. The only "tuning" that took place was adjustment for idle quality and attempting to attain a baseline. Before we could even get that far, the problems surfaced.

        Bottom line is that nothing extraordinary was done to the engine before it started exhibiting serious problems. With the quality of components, the cost, and the putative high quality of engineering that went into this motor, that should not have happened.

        But the break-down will tell the tale, I suppose, so as Joseph put it, this is just a meaningless war of words.

        --Peter
      1. herrubermensch's Avatar
        herrubermensch -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        If that is not possible for whatever reason, will we be able to count on documentation of the internals?
        Look, I have no connection with VAC and I have no reason to doubt their objectivity. More importantly, there is infinitely more reason to suspect the veracity of Dave's diagnosis of the problems with his own build than the diagnosis of an unaffiliated third party with the requisite expertise. But if Dave wants to confirm the analysis or assess its validity first hand, he or his designee is welcome to be present for the teardown. I expect sufficiently reliable "documentation of the internals" to satisfy the requirements of an expert report in court.

        --Peter
      1. herrubermensch's Avatar
        herrubermensch -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Any decent tuner would have said I don't think so and stepped away. It had to be spinning...
        You weren't there, you don't have the experience or qualifications of Mr. X. I'll put Mr. X and his qualifications up against Dave in court any day of the week.
      1. BigM62's Avatar
        BigM62 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasM5 Click here to enlarge
        you really have a hard on for bavarian destruction, i dont think there's anyway to win with you.

        and i thought i was ignorant.
        Ahh! That is more like it Raza! I knew you would not disappoint me/us!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasM5 Click here to enlarge
        you really have a hard on for bavarian destruction, i dont think there's anyway to win with you.

        and i thought i was ignorant.
        Definition of the word is lacking in knowledge or information on a particular subject.

        Asking for documentation is the exact opposite as it is the desire to be informed. If you are going to attempt to insult someone you should probably get a better grasp of the English language first.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by herrubermensch Click here to enlarge
        You weren't there, you don't have the experience or qualifications of Mr. X. I'll put Mr. X and his qualifications up against Dave in court any day of the week.
        True I was not there and I do not have the experience of Mr. X. Not having the qualifications may be a good thing depending on perspective.

        Either way, the disassembly is going to be key and we will all see.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by herrubermensch Click here to enlarge
        Look, I have no connection with VAC and I have no reason to doubt their objectivity. More importantly, there is infinitely more reason to suspect the veracity of Dave's diagnosis of the problems with his own build than the diagnosis of an unaffiliated third party with the requisite expertise. But if Dave wants to confirm the analysis or assess its validity first hand, he or his designee is welcome to be present for the teardown. I expect sufficiently reliable "documentation of the internals" to satisfy the requirements of an expert report in court.

        --Peter
        I'm not doubting the accuracy of Dave or VAC here simply stating that having more than one party is going to be necessary as VAC is a competitor. Who is to say it is not in their interest to get dirt on Bavarian Solutions or attempt to portray themselves as superior at Dave's expense? It certainly is a possibility and I know you are interested in getting to the truth of the matter so making the procedure as objective as is reasonably possible should be the goal.

        It's nice of you to invite Dave there. I'm not in a position to speak for him. Photographic evidence definitely would be something you would want during disassembly especially if you do turn out to be correct and do wish to pursue this further such as in court as you have been saying. Without another party there I feel there is a chance that if the evidence shows Dave is not at fault that evidence may not be shown. Basically, the situation favors you as it is currently set up.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        He has a perfectly valid question. If Dave is not present what is to say Peter or VAC says anything they want if the find out it was tuning related and try to cover it up?

        I'm not saying they would but like I said before I have seen some expensive disasters in other places and the shop blamed the previous one for all the mistakes even though it was a faulty rod that just let go..guy did it to save face on his expensive Porsche build at the expense of the previous shop, even though they did nothing wrong.
        Exactly my point, thank you.
      1. DallasM5's Avatar
        DallasM5 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
        He has a perfectly valid question. If Dave is not present what is to say Peter or VAC says anything they want if the find out it was tuning related and try to cover it up?

        I'm not saying they would but like I said before I have seen some expensive disasters in other places and the shop blamed the previous one for all the mistakes even though it was a faulty rod that just let go..guy did it to save face on his expensive Porsche build at the expense of the previous shop, even though they did nothing wrong.
        then the balls in daves park now, tell him to get off his ass and be there if he cares enough. he had enough time to feed myself and others bull$#@! last august. im sure he can find time to be at VAC for a day.

        if he's not going, then there is nothing to bicker about. if it turns out that bavarian destruction F'd up, then thats what the final verdict will be. but i dont think sticky will be able to accept that. im sure he will find another excuse, along with his followers on here.

        with the amount of blatant lies ive heard from dave, i would doubt him more then anyone else. ask dave how he first states he is finishing installing the vanos, then next phone call he's rushing to put the engine in his van during the rain...but he calls 2 hours later saying he doesnt even have the tensioner for the cylinder head...thats over a span of roughly 6 hours. blatant lies? yes sir

        should i go on?
      1. THATDONFC's Avatar
        THATDONFC -
        Who in their right mind would finish assembling an engine without checking to make sure it rotates with little restriction?