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    • Bolt on 2nd generation Cadillac CTS-V vs. bolt on BMW F80 M3 street race

      A street race for $100 (that's it?) was set up between these two rear wheel drive sedans. The Cadillac of course being the larger and heavier sedan carrying a penalty of about 700 pounds on the lighter and nimbler BMW F80 M3.


      The Cadllac's LSA 6.2 liter V8 is supercharged whereas the M3 features a twin turbocharged 3.0 liter S55 I6.

      What are the modifications? Both are said to be bolt on cars which could mean any number of things. The M3 is on race gas and also looks to have methanol injection.

      The bottom line? It is a driver's race between the two. They are that close.


      This article was originally published in forum thread: Bolt on 2nd generation Cadillac CTS-V vs. bolt on BMW F80 M3 street race started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 20 Comments
      1. Eleventeen's Avatar
        Eleventeen -
        Can't believe the F80 hung with it off the line. The CTS-V will typically 60' much better.
      1. lulz_m3's Avatar
        lulz_m3 -
        M3 would have won if it rolled its windows up...
      1. The Ghost's Avatar
        The Ghost -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
        M3 would have won if it rolled its windows up...
        Beat me to it! I've made that mistake a lot. It's hard to roll them up during the race.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Auto vs DCT? v

        Need more info. A "bolt on" V is a low 10s car and they can run 9s with stock blower.

        Looks/sounds like the V left off idle, no launch control. They can definitely leave harder than that especially he had DRs.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by subaru335i Click here to enlarge
        Auto vs DCT? v

        Need more info. A "bolt on" V is a low 10s car and they can run 9s with stock blower.

        Looks/sounds like the V left off idle, no launch control. They can definitely leave harder than that especially he had DRs.
        Wish we had more info but it takes a lot of work to get a factory blower LSA V into the 9's.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Wish we had more info but it takes a lot of work to get a factory blower LSA V into the 9's.
        Not as much as you would think. You can get into 9's with Cam, Headers, Intake, upper and lower pulley, ported blower, E85 and drag radials. FBO boost only is like 800whp.
        That is honestly not that much work. Stock rear end, axles, tranny, motor, blower, heads.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by subaru335i Click here to enlarge
        You can get into 9's with Cam, Headers, Intake, upper and lower pulley, ported blower, E85 and drag radials. FBO boost only is like 800whp.
        I don't consider a cam upgrade a bolt on mod though but you're right with all that you can run 9's.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't consider a cam upgrade a bolt on mod though but you're right with all that you can run 9's.
        Yeah I suppose not technically bolt on but you don't have to open the motor up, just need new springs and pushrods so its pretty cheap. All those mods would probably be like $6-7k
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by subaru335i Click here to enlarge
        Yeah I suppose not technically bolt on but you don't have to open the motor up, just need new springs and pushrods so its pretty cheap. All those mods would probably be like $6-7k
        True just going by my definition of bolt on.

        Once changing cams, heads, turbos, superchargers, whatever, I consider it beyond bolt on.

        Wish we just had the full mod list for both of these cars.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        True just going by my definition of bolt on.

        Once changing cams, heads, turbos, superchargers, whatever, I consider it beyond bolt on.

        Wish we just had the full mod list for both of these cars.
        Agreed
      1. biz77's Avatar
        biz77 -
        Launching a pullied V on anything but a heavily prepped surface even with good drag radials can be difficult. The off-idle grunt is immense once the boost is turned up and the torque limiting nannies are disabled. On a fully prepped surface a bolt-on only V will typically cut sub-1.60 60' times. It's not uncommon to see cammed or nitrous cars cut 1.4 or lower.
      1. The Ghost's Avatar
        The Ghost -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        I don't consider a cam upgrade a bolt on mod though but you're right with all that you can run 9's.
        For a SBC, a cam is a basic mod. It just slides in (/Michael Scott) and is cheap. Intake, headers, TB, intake manifold, and cam/heads is FBO for a SBC.
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
        For a SBC, a cam is a basic mod. It just slides in (/Michael Scott) and is cheap. Intake, headers, TB, intake manifold, and cam/heads is FBO for a SBC.
        Yeah in that world you are right. And with those mods Auto V2's have run 9s haha.
      1. Blown6's Avatar
        Blown6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by subaru335i Click here to enlarge
        Yeah I suppose not technically bolt on but you don't have to open the motor up, just need new springs and pushrods so its pretty cheap. All those mods would probably be like $6-7k
        Or you can just get an M5 and turn up the boost....
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blown6 Click here to enlarge
        Or you can just get an M5 and turn up the boost....
        That isn't true. As far as I have seen they are still mid 10s car with stock turbos and weight reduction.
        The few ones in the 9s don't have full interior and have upgraded turbos (Pure stage 2 are $5k) plus supporting mods. AANND they are barely in the 9s at like 9.99

        F10 M5's are fast but still its not that easy.
      1. Blown6's Avatar
        Blown6 -
        Mid 10s right. No lumpy idle, no e85 needed. Just sticky rears some 93-94 and maybe some downpipes with the tune. Stock turbos.

        I am sure cts-v is over 6-7k with labour, tuning, drag radials etc....
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
        For a SBC, a cam is a basic mod. It just slides in (/Michael Scott) and is cheap. Intake, headers, TB, intake manifold, and cam/heads is FBO for a SBC.
        I understand it installs easily but my definition of bolt ons means stock cams.

        Bolt ons is a tune, exhaust, pulleys, intakes, etc.
      1. biz77's Avatar
        biz77 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blown6 Click here to enlarge
        Mid 10s right. No lumpy idle, no e85 needed. Just sticky rears some 93-94 and maybe some downpipes with the tune. Stock turbos.

        I am sure cts-v is over 6-7k with labour, tuning, drag radials etc....
        So you're suggesting F80's are running mid-10's on just a tune with a splash of race gas/ethanol and radial tires?

        The formula for putting a V2 into the high tens is pretty simple...
        Intake: $400
        Ported Throttle Body: $200
        Cat Delete test pipes: $400
        Injectors: $700
        Supercharger Pulley/hub and belt: $275
        Custom Tune: $500
        19" Mickey Thompson Radials for the rear: $650 pr.
        This has proven to put V's on pump gas in the 550+ WHP range running low-11's/high 10's with traps in the high 120's to low 130's on good pump gas.

        That's around $3,000.00 if you DIY the install and it's all very basic stuff most people with tools can handle at home. Pricing indicated above is nominal pricing on new parts, not the lowest someone could find bargain hunting or shopping used. Do you want cooling mods on top of that list? Absolutely, but it isn't totally necessary to make a few 1/4 mile passes.
        Add in a $400 Flex Fuel kit to the above (which is optional as you could just switch maps between pump gas and ethanol) and that mod list puts you at 600+ WHP and tens with traps over 130MPH are pretty much a guarantee.
        The record for bolt-on car as defined by Sticky (meaning stock/unopened long block) is 10.1 @ 136. Cars with basically the smallest cam you can upgrade to (the LS9 cam out of the ZR1 which you can pick up new at your local Chevy dealer for under $175) has put cars in the high 9's at 140 MPH. A big boy cam package will run you about $800 in parts all inclusive (cam, springs, retainers etc) from one of the LSA cam specialists. I won't lie, swapping a cam on a V2 is a big job and fairly expensive if you need to hire it out ($1,500 is typical), but with a decent sized cam you are into 700WHP territory.
        I don't think there is much point in arguing the capability of the CTS-V. There is no replacement for displacement. Whatever you can do on a 3.0 liter six, they can do much bigger on an LS-based engine. Even stock blocks have been known to survive over 1,000 WHP with 100,000 miles on the clock. Just keep in mind you may have a couple handfuls of F80's running in the 10's. If you head over to the CTS-V forum and look at the 1/4 mile times list, the top 145 spots are all cars running 10.99 or quicker, the top 42 spots are all 9.99 or quicker with the #1 spot running 7.659@181.6 and the fastest stock short block (pistons, rods, crank and block) car trapping 150.48 MPH (with full interior).
        I think the S55 and S63(tu) are both amazing engines with very easy tuning potential to get you solidly into the tens for reasonable money, but they have a LONG way to go to reach the high water marks of any LS-based engine and it's going to be very expensive to get them to those marks. You think a cam and head package is expensive for an LS?
      1. Blown6's Avatar
        Blown6 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by biz77 Click here to enlarge
        So you're suggesting F80's are running mid-10's on just a tune with a splash of race gas/ethanol and radial tires?

        The formula for putting a V2 into the high tens is pretty simple...
        Intake: $400
        Ported Throttle Body: $200
        Cat Delete test pipes: $400
        Injectors: $700
        Supercharger Pulley/hub and belt: $275
        Custom Tune: $500
        19" Mickey Thompson Radials for the rear: $650 pr.
        This has proven to put V's on pump gas in the 550+ WHP range running low-11's/high 10's with traps in the high 120's to low 130's on good pump gas.

        That's around $3,000.00 if you DIY the install and it's all very basic stuff most people with tools can handle at home. Pricing indicated above is nominal pricing on new parts, not the lowest someone could find bargain hunting or shopping used. Do you want cooling mods on top of that list? Absolutely, but it isn't totally necessary to make a few 1/4 mile passes.
        Add in a $400 Flex Fuel kit to the above (which is optional as you could just switch maps between pump gas and ethanol) and that mod list puts you at 600+ WHP and tens with traps over 130MPH are pretty much a guarantee.
        The record for bolt-on car as defined by Sticky (meaning stock/unopened long block) is 10.1 @ 136. Cars with basically the smallest cam you can upgrade to (the LS9 cam out of the ZR1 which you can pick up new at your local Chevy dealer for under $175) has put cars in the high 9's at 140 MPH. A big boy cam package will run you about $800 in parts all inclusive (cam, springs, retainers etc) from one of the LSA cam specialists. I won't lie, swapping a cam on a V2 is a big job and fairly expensive if you need to hire it out ($1,500 is typical), but with a decent sized cam you are into 700WHP territory.
        I don't think there is much point in arguing the capability of the CTS-V. There is no replacement for displacement. Whatever you can do on a 3.0 liter six, they can do much bigger on an LS-based engine. Even stock blocks have been known to survive over 1,000 WHP with 100,000 miles on the clock. Just keep in mind you may have a couple handfuls of F80's running in the 10's. If you head over to the CTS-V forum and look at the 1/4 mile times list, the top 145 spots are all cars running 10.99 or quicker, the top 42 spots are all 9.99 or quicker with the #1 spot running 7.659@181.6 and the fastest stock short block (pistons, rods, crank and block) car trapping 150.48 MPH (with full interior).
        I think the S55 and S63(tu) are both amazing engines with very easy tuning potential to get you solidly into the tens for reasonable money, but they have a LONG way to go to reach the high water marks of any LS-based engine and it's going to be very expensive to get them to those marks. You think a cam and head package is expensive for an LS?
        That is good information. I did not mention the F80, only the F10 and how easy they are to modify for 130+ traps with a tune and downpipes....
      1. subaru335i's Avatar
        subaru335i -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by biz77 Click here to enlarge
        So you're suggesting F80's are running mid-10's on just a tune with a splash of race gas/ethanol and radial tires?

        The formula for putting a V2 into the high tens is pretty simple...
        Intake: $400
        Ported Throttle Body: $200
        Cat Delete test pipes: $400
        Injectors: $700
        Supercharger Pulley/hub and belt: $275
        Custom Tune: $500
        19" Mickey Thompson Radials for the rear: $650 pr.
        This has proven to put V's on pump gas in the 550+ WHP range running low-11's/high 10's with traps in the high 120's to low 130's on good pump gas.

        That's around $3,000.00 if you DIY the install and it's all very basic stuff most people with tools can handle at home. Pricing indicated above is nominal pricing on new parts, not the lowest someone could find bargain hunting or shopping used. Do you want cooling mods on top of that list? Absolutely, but it isn't totally necessary to make a few 1/4 mile passes.
        Add in a $400 Flex Fuel kit to the above (which is optional as you could just switch maps between pump gas and ethanol) and that mod list puts you at 600+ WHP and tens with traps over 130MPH are pretty much a guarantee.
        The record for bolt-on car as defined by Sticky (meaning stock/unopened long block) is 10.1 @ 136. Cars with basically the smallest cam you can upgrade to (the LS9 cam out of the ZR1 which you can pick up new at your local Chevy dealer for under $175) has put cars in the high 9's at 140 MPH. A big boy cam package will run you about $800 in parts all inclusive (cam, springs, retainers etc) from one of the LSA cam specialists. I won't lie, swapping a cam on a V2 is a big job and fairly expensive if you need to hire it out ($1,500 is typical), but with a decent sized cam you are into 700WHP territory.
        I don't think there is much point in arguing the capability of the CTS-V. There is no replacement for displacement. Whatever you can do on a 3.0 liter six, they can do much bigger on an LS-based engine. Even stock blocks have been known to survive over 1,000 WHP with 100,000 miles on the clock. Just keep in mind you may have a couple handfuls of F80's running in the 10's. If you head over to the CTS-V forum and look at the 1/4 mile times list, the top 145 spots are all cars running 10.99 or quicker, the top 42 spots are all 9.99 or quicker with the #1 spot running 7.659@181.6 and the fastest stock short block (pistons, rods, crank and block) car trapping 150.48 MPH (with full interior).
        I think the S55 and S63(tu) are both amazing engines with very easy tuning potential to get you solidly into the tens for reasonable money, but they have a LONG way to go to reach the high water marks of any LS-based engine and it's going to be very expensive to get them to those marks. You think a cam and head package is expensive for an LS?
        Exactly, there aren't many cars that make it easier to get solidly into the 10s out of the box