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    • California wants to ruin performance cars for everyone - CARB vows to defy White House

      CARB (California Air Resources Board) is doing its darndest to ruin performance cars for everyone. What is the problem? CARB is adopting standards for 2025 that automakers believe are far too strict.


      Why is this a problem? First of all, automakers already stated they simply can not meet the previously proposed standards. Secondly, the rest of the states in the union would be forced to acknowledge CARB's decision. That means even if you do not live in California CARB would still be able to push your state around.

      Imagine for a moment a new car coming out with a lot of horsepower that is very efficient and meets EPA standards but does not meet CARB standards. Effectively, there would be two sets of emission standards in the USA but the CARB standards could force that automaker to abandon selling the car in the United States or even worse not bother producing it.

      Want to know what is truly troubling? Arizona, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and the District of Columbia all decided to agree to CARB's standards. That means many of you are not exempt from California's eco-nazis even if you do not live in California.

      CARB gets away with setting federal standards as it pre-dates the EPA and a waiver under the Federal Clean Air Act means their emission standards must be recognized by other states.

      What will happen? Who knows. The Trump administration froze EPA grants to CARB hitting them where it hurts. The Trump administration also cut funding to the EPA. The Obama administration on their way out rushed approval of new EPA standards that align with CARB prior to Trump taking office.

      CARB blames the automakers:

      Quote Originally Posted by California Air Resources Board Chair Mary Nichols
      What were you thinking when you threw yourself on the mercy of the Trump administration to try to solve your problems?
      The White House believes California is going too far:

      Quote Originally Posted by White House
      We are disappointed that California has chosen to refuse our good-faith offer to work together with all relevant stakeholders on this important matter
      As you can see, this is all pretty messy and will involve a lot of lawyers on taxpayer dime to sort out. The best case scenario is that CARB's waiver is revoked effectively neutralizing their power. The worst case scenario is two standards floating around which carmakers simply decide not to even bother with and stop producing performance cars altogether for the US market.

      Thanks a lot California.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: California wants to ruin performance cars for everyone - CARB vows to defy White House started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 93 Comments
      1. gaspam's Avatar
        gaspam -
        just give CA back to mexico and let all the lefties live under mexican rule...problem solved
      1. Sticky2's Avatar
        Sticky2 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by gaspam Click here to enlarge
        just give CA back to mexico and let all the lefties live under mexican rule...problem solved
        Don't group us all together.
      1. SVH's Avatar
        SVH -
        The State's too big. It's influence too imposing.
        Cut it in half and down to size....
      1. Stevenh's Avatar
        Stevenh -
        I'm on board for our wonderful new president not gutting years of environmental progress. This is fine by me.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        I'm on board for our wonderful new president not gutting years of environmental progress. This is fine by me.
        Yeah crippling the American auto industry while China and India do WTF they want makes sense.
      1. csu87's Avatar
        csu87 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        I'm on board for our wonderful new president not gutting years of environmental progress. This is fine by me.
        hippy...

        the people that push so hard for these "Environmental Friendly" rules and regulations, really have no idea what they are actually pushing for. They just believe it when they are told "It will save the environment" but dont question how, how much or at what cost.

        This CARB regulation isnt going to save the environment from $#@!, and it has the potential to negatively impact the auto business.
      1. Stevenh's Avatar
        Stevenh -
        Every group in the country, including the GOP, seems to be 'defying the White House'. Trump has already proven he has no idea wtf he is doing with his health Care bill. Why are you trusting him with dismantling the EPA or climate agreements we've made?

        Additionally, you should than recent regulations for the recent wave in performance increases? Do you think we'd be seeing Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc boosting everything in their line up if we didn't have to? I'm also willing to bet it sped up the rollout of direct injection as well. The next wave may have been hybrid powerplants showing up in more performance applications, but "eh" screw the environment!
      1. csu87's Avatar
        csu87 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        Every group in the country, including the GOP, seems to be 'defying the White House'. Trump has already proven he has no idea wtf he is doing with his health Care bill. Why are you trusting him with dismantling the EPA or climate agreements we've made?

        Additionally, you should than recent regulations for the recent wave in performance increases? Do you think we'd be seeing Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc boosting everything in their line up if we didn't have to? I'm also willing to bet it sped up the rollout of direct injection as well. The next wave may have been hybrid powerplants showing up in more performance applications, but "eh" screw the environment!
        Nothing about this is going to boost performance in vehicles lol. There are going to be smaller engines in slower vehicles to meet fuel efficiency standards and more hybrids, which most people who are into performance dont want.

        As for the White House not knowing what its doing and everyone defying it, time to move along and stop trying to fight every little thing. He won, get over it. He may be the 2nd worst choice for president in the history of the US, but thats what happens when you run against the worst choice.
      1. Stevenh's Avatar
        Stevenh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by csu87 Click here to enlarge
        Nothing about this is going to boost performance in vehicles lol. There are going to be smaller engines in slower vehicles to meet fuel efficiency standards and more hybrids, which most people who are into performance dont want.
        The p1, 918 and LF disagree with you. There is a reason carbeurated 454s are a thing of the past. I'm not saying every car will see a performance increase, but new technologies will find their ways into performance cars and we'll see it there.
      1. E90Company's Avatar
        E90Company -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        The p1, 918 and LF disagree with you. There is a reason carbeurated 454s are a thing of the past. I'm not saying every car will see a performance increase, but new technologies will find their ways into performance cars and we'll see it there.
        Carbeurated big block V8's in drag cars disagree with you. They aren't a thing of the past. There's a reason they power all the fastest cars on the drag strip.

        Smaller boosted engines aren't making more power compared to larger engines. The only time they do is when they are combined with electric motors in hyper cars. Your argument is pretty poor, try again.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        Every group in the country, including the GOP, seems to be 'defying the White House'. Trump has already proven he has no idea wtf he is doing with his health Care bill. Why are you trusting him with dismantling the EPA or climate agreements we've made?
        I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Full repeal was promised. It wasn't trump who made the bill but Paul Ryan. The same Paul Ryan who said he would never support Trump.

        Right after it didn't pass Trump said watch Fox and the first report was that Paul Ryan should step down.

        I think he wants his head and deservedly so.

        The Americans are still building awesome motors and cars. The Germans used regulations as an excuse to cut costs.

        We are going to see engines continue to downsize though.
      1. Saca135i's Avatar
        Saca135i -
        https://www.facebook.com/JohnStossel...4083806071621/

        This video sums up what the EPA is up to. A full dismantle of the EPA would be ideal, with letting each state/local government form its own regulations.
      1. lamboworld's Avatar
        lamboworld -
        Better move to a republican controlled state if you don't want to deal with these rules. For example, SC has no inspection or emission laws.
      1. Sticky2's Avatar
        Sticky2 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lamboworld Click here to enlarge
        Better move to a republican controlled state if you don't want to deal with these rules. For example, SC has no inspection or emission laws.
        It's also South Carolina though... Perhaps I need to visit though.
      1. lamboworld's Avatar
        lamboworld -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky2 Click here to enlarge
        It's also South Carolina though... Perhaps I need to visit though.
        Anywhere in the southeast will work.
      1. Stevenh's Avatar
        Stevenh -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
        Carbeurated big block V8's in drag cars disagree with you. They aren't a thing of the past. There's a reason they power all the fastest cars on the drag strip.
        Great, what a top-fuel car can run is really relevant here. Great point. If you want to build a car with a carbeurated big block in it you can do so. My point is there is a reason they haven't been built for nearly half a century.
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
        Smaller boosted engines aren't making more power compared to larger engines. The only time they do is when they are combined with electric motors in hyper cars. Your argument is pretty poor, try again.
        I think you're missing my point entirely. Technology has become the replacement for displacement and the EPA has forced its hand over the last decade. We have seen cars replace large motors with smaller turbo motors and make more power with a far better power band. I'll have to double check, but I don't think Merc, BMW, Audi has EVER decreased displacement as models evolved until the most recent generation where they ran into fuel economy concerns. Guess what? They're now all making more power with better fuel economy than ever.

        The fact that the hyper-cars are combined with hybrid tech is, again, my point... this technology will trickle down and start finding its way in more cars. Take a look at the new Panamera Turbo S-E Hybrid... there is a hybrid 911 indevelopment... there are rumors of the next GTR... The NSX is a disappointing example, but it is happening and the technology will only improve. We've seen turbo morors and direct injection show never before seen performance increases over the last decade a likely way for those bounds to continue is through the use of a hybrid drivetrain. So, why would we not welcome additional fuel economy and performance? Every car on the street is already embarrassed by a Tesla sedan through the quarter mile (yes, I know what a trap speed is) so either keep up with the times or become yesterdays news.

        This site is hilarious. I read an article about how BMW "no longer builds M cars" and "AMG only builds drag cars" 6 days a week, but the next day we'll rag on an initiative that would force them to build lighter cars? Pick a side.
      1. Sticky2's Avatar
        Sticky2 -
        Explain to me how hybrids force lighter cars? BMWs are already all time heavy. How are batteries going to make things lighter?
      1. Stevenh's Avatar
        Stevenh -
        They don't both have to happen. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why reducing weight will improve mileage. All I'm saying is this will force manufacturers to explore new technologies to meet the requirements. You'd be against a 2.0l, 4 cyl in a sub-3,000lb M2?
      1. Sticky2's Avatar
        Sticky2 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
        They don't both have to happen. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why reducing weight will improve mileage. All I'm saying is this will force manufacturers to explore new technologies to meet the requirements. You'd be against a 2.0l, 4 cyl in a sub-3,000lb M2?
        Sure but Cali is forcing hybrids which means they are going to focus more on getting electrics out there than efficiency.

        I have yet to see anyone saying lets just shave a few hundred pounds.
      1. csu87's Avatar
        csu87 -
        Exactly, this isnt forcing auto manufacturers to make lighter better performance cars, its forcing them to make heavier hybrids that perform like $#@!. The Tesla is the exception to the rule, and even then, you have to get the Performance Model with ludicrous mode to run in the mid 10s. Thats a $140k + car that weighs the same as my crew cab pickup. The regular Model S performs no better than a 3 series.