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    • DCT Build Part VIII - Putting it back together

      As of right now, the transmission is completed and the cooling system is in the process of being completed. Where we left off was the car being taken to SSP for the build of the cooling system. To make this all make sense we will not skip ahead, instead showing you each step. Here SSP is getting ready to put it together with the new clutch discs. They laid out all the parts and used 3d scanning equipment to record them to aid in the production of the parts. Everything was laid out to make sure the parts were clean and accounted for. Additionally, they were working on prototype viton seals for the transmission. The next update will have details on the cooling system.
























      This article was originally published in forum thread: M3 DCT Build Journal - World's First BMW DCT Build started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 3052 Comments
      1. ERM324's Avatar
        ERM324 -
        I mean the VAC car is at 9psi now and its holding up fine isn't it? I'm actually happy they are pushing that thing to the limit so we can see how well both the motor and the DCT hold up...ESS doesn't say anything other than real common sense stuff, just the more power you push the more wear your going to get on the tranny obviously...it just seems that upward of 600 wheel is the limit for the tranny from what I've seen

        7psi isn't enough, the car feels slow after a while lol
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        There isn't really a limit as much as higher power wears faster. If you don't launch from a stop you can handle more power for longer.
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Drew is a pussy. I'll gladly run him or anyone else who has the courage to step up.

        He runs like a girl though, he won't step up and let me smack him around for the world to see.
        LMAO! This, coming from someone who's car hasn't ran in two years. The emotions of a adolescent teenager...
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 -
        How many cars have you run again? Drew has single handily ran more cars than anyone any of us know. Are you EVER going to stop acting like a immature little female? I understand though, your parents never gave you the chance to become a real man, they raised a $#@!...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
        How many cars have you run again? Drew has single handily ran more cars than anyone any of us know. Are you EVER going to stop acting like a immature little female? I understand though, your parents never gave you the chance to become a real man, they raised a $#@!...
        Lol ok dude.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
        LMAO! This, coming from someone who's car hasn't ran in two years. The emotions of a adolescent teenager...
        Let me know if you want a piece too little guy.
      1. M33's Avatar
        M33 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Drew is a pussy. I'll gladly run him or anyone else who has the courage to step up.

        He runs like a girl though, he won't step up and let me smack him around for the world to see.
        The only thing you run is your mouth bro ... I so wished we lived near each other for many reasons Click here to enlarge
        now how in the world can you sit here and tell everyone that after 3 years you still have no idea what your hold up was and if theirs anotherone you won't know what it is ????
        I wonder if your car really exist......

        I've seen pictures of you , I don't Forsee you smacking anyone but the table when your pissed due to another delay from your flux capacitor.....

        Vroo. Vroom please step aside sticky coming through on his 10 speed
      1. Stampy's Avatar
        Stampy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Now kindly STFU and go wow people with a build of your own as if anyone gives a crap about your C32 or other outdated cars you are doing nothing with. Read more, hate less.
        Isn't an E92 M3 now "out dated" considering it is no longer in production... doesn't that seem ridiculous to you?

        You bought this car new and it's been under the knife for its whole production cycle and is now out of production, you're bashing someones "out dated" car while yours is, and to top it all off you act all hard while your setup is being built on someone elses dime.

        Class act right here ladies and gents.
      1. jjv104's Avatar
        jjv104 -
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jjv104 Click here to enlarge
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
        awesome, all of it
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stampy Click here to enlarge
        Isn't an E92 M3 now "out dated" considering it is no longer in production... doesn't that seem ridiculous to you?

        You bought this car new and it's been under the knife for its whole production cycle and is now out of production, you're bashing someones "out dated" car while yours is, and to top it all off you act all hard while your setup is being built on someone elses dime.

        Class act right here ladies and gents.
        E9x m3's are still being produced as is the s65 v8. Until the next gen m3 shows up it is the most current m3 available. Plus, I can just buy the new one too when it gets here.

        A bit more recent than a c32 wouldn't you say?

        My setup isn't being built on anyone's dime but my own so you simply don't know what you are talking about.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jjv104 Click here to enlarge
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
        I'm not frustrated the time hasn't bothered me as much as it seems to bother other people. It's a project car to promote my websites, however long it takes it will take and when complete I will just move on to the next project.

        People hate and I'm used to it by now. The results will speak for themselves. These are the same people who said I would never be able to get a forum off the ground either and now they are coming to me not the other way around.

        Some people appreciate the sacrifice and small minded bitter individuals do not. Let them be angry.

        Can't wait to get out there.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jjv104 Click here to enlarge
        Gentlemen,

        Can we please try to keep this post on topic. Sticky started this post with some excellent photos and a plan to do some great upgrades. This obviouly took up a lot of his time. I thank him for sharing it. Obviously the build is not working out as timely as he would like and I understand his frustration. The negative comments are not productive.

        I'm sure many of us DCT owners would like to get more information about the issues with the DCT when supercharging the car. I know I would. I installed a VF-620 SC and have had issues with the clutch slipping at the track. I have spoken with SSP about their clutch packs ($2599). Kris told me that they have sold about 30 sets. Most were shipped to Shanghai for a SC installer there who puts them into all his cars. Kris said that he sold 6-10 in North America but I did not ask Kris for a reference list. So far I've not found one post on the forums of anyone successfully using the SSP clutch packs. Drew installed the SSP clutch packs but their was another issue with the transmission and he ended up having the entire DCT replaced.

        I'm a mechanical engineer and am familiar with wet clutches in industrial equipment. The idea of Kevlar friction material sounds good, but if you research the recomendations from the manufacturer of the material you'll find that Kevlar is harder than the paper based material Getrag uses and requires higher clamping force, just like a race clutch in a MT requires stronger springs. Kevlar also takes up to 5 times longer to break-in vs paper based material. ESS says their software upgrade for the DCT ($995) increases the clamping force. If this is possible to do with just a tune I think it's prudent to ask what will be the next weak link in the DCT. The clutch design, and the DCT too for that matter, has many compromises. The paper based material has its advantages. The same with the transmission fluid. SSP pushes their own fluid ($50/ liter, the DCT takes about 9 liters) as being superior to the BMW fill of Pentosin FFL-4. The DCT has a single sump so the fluid must lubricate the gears as well as possible, but also disipate heat from the wet clutches and not be too slippery so the clutches don't slip. The reqirements for each application is contradictory at best. Pentosin is a well respected company and a leader in double clutch transmission lubrication for many auto companies. Even BMW dealers sell the FFL-4 for much less than SSP.

        Another possibility is a race clutch module that is currently being developed in europe. James Clay from BimmerWorld is researching the clutch to see if it might have potential. Preliminary pricing is about $8000 plus install.

        Lastly, if your DCT was abused before the SC was installed, it's entirely possible that the friction material is glazed and requires replacement. BMW does sell the clutch module separately ($1900 - $2400 plus install). In my mind a factory replacement might be the most practical solution. Imagine that.

        I'm also working with VF-Engineering to make sure there is nothing in their software that might be contributing to the problem. The DCT talks to the ECU via the PT-CAN to control engine torque. VF is very aware of the DCT interface and are trying to duplicate the problem I have on one of their test mules.

        Stay tuned.
        Regarding increasing the clamping force all they can do at ESS is up line pressure, that's it. I don't know how else you would do it as BMW did the same thing in software updates. We need to make sure we have enough pressure for the stronger clutches.

        You are correct regarding the DCT fluid dissipating heat which is why I am running a different fluid as well as more of it.

        When did BMW start selling the clutch module separately?

        What problem is it you are experiencing with VF?
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        My setup isn't being built on anyone's dime but my own
        Sig worthy!

        In all seriousness, while I appreciate the digs, I'm content with our household automotive lineup for now. My '04 C32 is my DD, and is modified into a Kleemann 32 K2 (roughly 340 rwhp) plus some other odds and ends. I drive a lot for work, and it fits my needs for now... plus it has a kick-ass unlimited mileage service contract for another year or so.

        My wife's DD is an '09 X5, which we also both enjoy. Third toy vehicle is an '02 996TT X50, with an AWE Gen2 exhaust and an EPL tune. When I bought it stock and CPO a year ago, could I have gotten an E9x M3 instead? Sure could've, for thousands less... but I wanted a Porsche turbo.

        Anyway, enough OT - let's see this transmission completed, up and running successfully in a vehicle, and the corresponding results (dyno, track, VBOX, whatever). Hopefully this month...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Sig worthy!

        In all seriousness, while I appreciate the digs, I'm content with our household automotive lineup for now. My '04 C32 is my DD, and is modified into a Kleemann 32 K2 (roughly 340 rwhp) plus some other odds and ends. I drive a lot for work, and it fits my needs for now... plus it has a kick-ass unlimited mileage service contract for another year or so.

        My wife's DD is an '09 X5, which we also both enjoy. Third toy vehicle is an '02 996TT X50, with an AWE Gen2 exhaust and an EPL tune. When I bought it stock and CPO a year ago, could I have gotten an E9x M3 instead? Sure could've, for thousands less... but I wanted a Porsche turbo.

        Anyway, enough OT - let's see this transmission completed, up and running successfully in a vehicle, and the corresponding results (dyno, track, VBOX, whatever). Hopefully this month...
        Good for you dude, I really don't care about your lineup especially in my thread. A C32 is worth about as much as my rims and a 996tt X50 can be picked up for 40k. If that was a 997 you would have room to talk as that is the newest turbo model available. Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and make fun of you but you don't come into my build thread questioning me doing things that you can not do. As I said, modify your cars to this level and then let's talk. Go do an engine build on the 996 as the rods are a weak point past 600 whp, fuel system, trans, turbos, custom tune, water-meth, etc., and like I said, then talk.

        Enough OT? No kidding, you guys need to just let me worry about my car and read the updates when I post them. I'm glad so many of you are spiteful and don't want to see me succeed however it is going to make it that much sweeter. As soon as it is done I'm not going to be nice about it, I'm going to set out to embarrass anyone who ran their mouth.
      1. c32AMG-DTM's Avatar
        c32AMG-DTM -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Good for you dude, I really don't care about your lineup especially in my thread. A C32 is worth about as much as my rims and a 996tt X50 can be picked up for 40k. If that was a 997 you would have room to talk as that is the newest turbo model available. Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and make fun of you but you don't come into my build thread questioning me doing things that you can not do. As I said, modify your cars to this level and then let's talk. Go do an engine build on the 996 as the rods are a weak point past 600 whp, fuel system, trans, turbos, custom tune, water-meth, etc., and like I said, then talk.

        Enough OT? No kidding, you guys need to just let me worry about my car and read the updates when I post them. I'm glad so many of you are spiteful and don't want to see me succeed however it is going to make it that much sweeter. As soon as it is done I'm not going to be nice about it, I'm going to set out to embarrass anyone who ran their mouth.
        Funny that you edited my quote of your post. Freudian slip? Thought you never misspoke?

        Good luck with your car - I guess we'll just wait for the results, whenever that might be.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by c32AMG-DTM Click here to enlarge
        Funny that you edited my quote of your post. Freudian slip? Thought you never misspoke?

        Good luck with your car - I guess we'll just wait for the results, whenever that might be.
        When did I claim to never make a typo? I edited my own post and since you quoted it I edited my quote. Did the forum not notify you? Yes, even if I edit my own quote you are still notified so quit whining and say thank you that I try so hard for complete transparency. Of course you have a problem with that :rolleyes

        Exactly, you wait and I will let you all know. As if more posts will speed things up. It's done when it's done.
      1. Stampy's Avatar
        Stampy -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Good for you dude, I really don't care about your lineup especially in my thread. A C32 is worth about as much as my rims and a 996tt X50 can be picked up for 40k. If that was a 997 you would have room to talk as that is the newest turbo model available. Regardless, I'm not going to sit here and make fun of you but you don't come into my build thread questioning me doing things that you can not do. As I said, modify your cars to this level and then let's talk. Go do an engine build on the 996 as the rods are a weak point past 600 whp, fuel system, trans, turbos, custom tune, water-meth, etc., and like I said, then talk.

        Enough OT? No kidding, you guys need to just let me worry about my car and read the updates when I post them. I'm glad so many of you are spiteful and don't want to see me succeed however it is going to make it that much sweeter. As soon as it is done I'm not going to be nice about it, I'm going to set out to embarrass anyone who ran their mouth.
        How do we know your wheels aren't a hand out like your transmission and god knows what else. You're a joke. A true dildo, if you will.

        Your car will never run. Just burn it down.

        Starting a forum that exists solely on drama and building cars do not equal the same thing. The best part is you I can't wait until this thing dynos a whopping 450 rwhp and breaks so you can cry to all the people who turned wrenches on your car for you.
      1. fastgti69's Avatar
        fastgti69 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stampy Click here to enlarge
        How do we know your wheels aren't a hand out like your transmission and god knows what else. You're a joke. A true dildo, if you will.

        Your car will never run. Just burn it down.

        Starting a forum that exists solely on drama and building cars do not equal the same thing. The best part is you I can't wait until this thing dynos a whopping 450 rwhp and breaks so you can cry to all the people who turned wrenches on your car for you.
        I think he's hit about 600 rwhp..
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stampy Click here to enlarge
        How do we know your wheels aren't a hand out like your transmission and god knows what else. You're a joke. A true dildo, if you will.

        Your car will never run. Just burn it down.

        Starting a forum that exists solely on drama and building cars do not equal the same thing. The best part is you I can't wait until this thing dynos a whopping 450 rwhp and breaks so you can cry to all the people who turned wrenches on your car for you.
        So you are telling I got free HRE C90's before this website even existed just because I am me? Ok, that's realistic, they just hand out 7k+ rims. Why don't you call evosport and confirm it for yourself if it means that much to you? Do you people really have so little money?

        Dynos 450 whp when it already did 570+ and set records in the 1/4? LOL ok, hate away nobody.