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    • Has BMW slipped? Is Mercedes now the German performance enthusiast brand of choice?


      Many of us were attracted to German performance by BMW. There was a time when they made cars unlike anyone else. Cars that took no short cuts, with motors that represented the best their engineers had to offer. Now what do we have? Anti-tuning ecu's, the same motor in every car, M SUV's, FWD city cars coming, smaller and smaller motors paired with extreme brand dilution.

      While this has all been taking place, Mercedes has upped the ante. Mercedes is producing larger V8's with turbos. Mercedes is not afraid to place these motors in their lower end cars even if it steps on big brothers toes (C63 vs. E63, anyone?). Mercedes has rolled out the SLR, SLS, CLK63 Black Series, and SL65 Black Series. Rumor has it that Mercedes will put their twin turbo V8 in a black series C-coupe. If that isn't upping the ante, I do not know what is.

      BMW has announced the next generation M3 will have a 6 cylinder. While they are downsizing Mercedes is sticking a V8 in everything. They are even planning on expanding the AMG lineup and also considering producing an entry level SLS to rival the Porsche 911. Somehow, Mercedes went from being soft to being hardcore offering the black series which takes already potent AMG cars to the next level. Not to mention, unlike BMW and Audi, Mercedes has successfully rolled out all their performance models in the United States. Times are changing folks, and at least to this poster, it sure looks like Mercedes is now the enthusiast brand of choice.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Has BMW slipped? Is Mercedes now the German performance enthusiast brand of choice? started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 140 Comments
      1. Ricer Ennemi's Avatar
        Ricer Ennemi -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HeroSina Click here to enlarge
        man you want power ? Bmw made the most powerful units there , in turbo 4 Bmw was the most powerful, in V10 Bmw was the most powerful
        you want speed? Bmw actually made fastest cars , highest speed record belongs to Bmw with Heidfield at the wheel
        You want bad drivers? check Bmw drivers , Bmw wasn't really a successful team just because it didn't have no1 drivers
        BMW was supposed to team up with McLaren.They did the McLaren --F1-- togheter.Then McLaren turned back and got
        with Benz.It's a shame,a McLaren/BMW team would have be succeful no doubt.BMW V10 had too much power for the
        chassis and tires.Montoya always burned the rear tires!BMW V10 dominate at his beggining and others catch up.
        And not talking about how they outpowered everyone in '83 with production M10 blocks!.....82.5psi in quaqlifs,period.
      1. Ricer Ennemi's Avatar
        Ricer Ennemi -
        AArrgnn!will write shorter lines...

        I also want to say I completely agree that BMW and Benz are switching positions!

        BUT STILL...-5.0l. 507hp...unequalled
        ...N/A 5.0l. 205mph...unequalled
        ...4.0l. 417hp 8400rpm...unequalled...BMW still have a pride!still the best!

        They will just never throw a 6.2l in their 3 series...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ricer Ennemi Click here to enlarge
        BUT STILL...-5.0l. 507hp...unequalled
        ...N/A 5.0l. 205mph...unequalled
        ...4.0l. 417hp 8400rpm...unequalled...BMW still have a pride!still the best!
        Yes, exactly, and these motors showed off their skill which was on par with the best. BMW is the best motor builder in history for this reason.

        Now what? We get the N54 which they don't have to make efficient in NA form, so the heads and the entire valvetrain is inferior to motors they produced decades ago (S54? S50? S38? Seriously?) and they can just cram in boost like everyone else.
      1. Stahlgrau's Avatar
        Stahlgrau -
        I'm going to bow out of the debate and just agree to disagree. It's obvious neither of us plans on budging on our opinions.

        BMW has made the business decision to go F/I that, in my opinion, is being forced upon them by stricter emissions regulations and the endless battle for more power. To continue competing both economically and on the track, they'll have to go with smaller engines with turbos. They've chosen not to continue increasing displacement. Like has already been said, if ///M still provides a properly balanced all-around car, I'm all for it. And all for less cost than the nearest Benz, Audi, and Porsche competitors.

        Personally, I'm a little excited to see what BMW can do with a 3.6L(or whatever) twin turbo motor. If it's anything comparable to the Porsche TTs and GT-Rs, things could get very interesting. The tuning possibilities will be increased and the cost/hp should decrease. Something I know I'm in favor of. I can only imagine what a Switzer tuned TTM3 would be capable of.

        Like I said in the beginning, until a comparably priced Benz or Audi is beating the M3 around a track, they're still king in this segment. The M3 is the flagship ///M. I'm willing to give them a chance to show what they can do before I start crowning theoretical champs from Benz.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Now what? We get the N54 which they don't have to make efficient in NA form, so the heads and the entire valvetrain is inferior to motors they produced decades ago (S54? S50? S38? Seriously?) and they can just cram in boost like everyone else.
        Come on , they won't use N54 in other platfroms
        the only M car which is available with N54 is 1M , just that! as i said before don't judge them with just 1M , if they do it with M3 then i'll be with you
      1. Stahlgrau's Avatar
        Stahlgrau -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HeroSina Click here to enlarge
        Come on , they won't use N54 in other platfroms
        the only M car which is available with N54 is 1M , just that! as i said before don't judge them with just 1M , if they do it with M3 then i'll be with you
        I fully agree. If they use the N54/N55, I might be a bit upset. I'm guessing, and hoping, that they'll develop a completely new motor with a bit more displacement than the N54/N55 and bigger turbos. Perhaps someone has heard something I haven't.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
        I'm guessing, and hoping, that they'll develop a completely new motor with a bit more displacement than the N54/N55 and bigger turbos. Perhaps someone has heard something I haven't.
        There are a bunch of rumors about N55 , and holy crap a V6 !! but i believe they will make something new and as you said with more displacement
      1. Stahlgrau's Avatar
        Stahlgrau -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by FR305 Click here to enlarge
        BMW should offer a Performance Upgrade Package for the M3 just like MB offers one for the C63. The C63 now makes 481HP!!!!! and has gotten a bunch of other goodies with the facelift while BMW has not done anything since the M3 came out.
        Well, they have the ZCP package. Nothing spectacular, though.
      1. fast4door's Avatar
        fast4door -
        Switzer TT M3!?!?! gives me goosenumos just think about it..I agree though, time have changed. And in order to keep up with the demands for high horsepower cars that still get decent MPG, BMW has to go with smaller displacement FI motors. I dont see anything wrong with that. They way I see it...Mercedes, Lexus, Audi, etc came out with their IS-F's and C63s and RS-4's to compete against the M3. The M3 is still the king of the class imo, even if its not the most powerful.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by HeroSina Click here to enlarge
        Come on , they won't use N54 in other platfroms
        the only M car which is available with N54 is 1M , just that! as i said before don't judge them with just 1M , if they do it with M3 then i'll be with you
        The point isn't necessarily the N54 itself but that they can get away with not taking the motors to such a high level any longer which saves costs. They simply add boost and there you go, no need for heads capable of producing 100 hp per liter NA or internals strong enough to rev past 8k rpm.
      1. JRCART's Avatar
        JRCART -
        I've got a couple things to say to those of you that don't think that AMG is out gunning BMW...Black Series and SLS, BMW has nothing close, and don't any of you utter the word CSL because it's not close and not available in the states. BMW offers 4 M models (1series, M3, M5 and X5/6M) while Mercedes offers every model except the GL and GLK in an AMG version.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        I've got a couple things to say to those of you that don't think that AMG is out gunning BMW...Black Series and SLS, BMW has nothing close, and don't any of you utter the word CSL because it's not close and not available in the states. BMW offers 4 M models (1series, M3, M5 and X5/6M) while Mercedes offers every model except the GL and GLK in an AMG version.
        Rumor is the GL is coming in an AMG version: http://www.benzboost.com/showthread....-generation-GL
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JRCART Click here to enlarge
        BMW offers 4 M models (1series, M3, M5 and X5/6M) while Mercedes offers every model except the GL and GLK in an AMG version.
        dude that's why M is so especial , no lame cars with M badge for losers who just want to drive something with M logo on it.
        on the other hand AMG really lost it with making AMG versions of some lame cars , like R63 Click here to enlarge
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        no lame cars with M badge for losers who just want to drive something with M logo on it.
        1M
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        ^ i knew something was wrong, decided to edit it but.....
      1. Karo's Avatar
        Karo -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        dude that's why M is so especial , no lame cars with M badge for losers who just want to drive something with M logo on it.
        on the other hand AMG really lost it with making AMG versions of some lame cars , like R63 Click here to enlarge
        You mean the Lame minivan that smokes a 997 Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge
      1. Karo's Avatar
        Karo -
        Hey atleast with that car going on the family camping trip would be fun. You probably won't even hear the kids say "Are we there yet?" lol Click here to enlarge
      1. Stahlgrau's Avatar
        Stahlgrau -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        1M
        Seems like a decent car to me. Performance and price on par with an E46 M3.
      1. Sorena's Avatar
        Sorena -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stahlgrau Click here to enlarge
        Seems like a decent car to me. Performance and price on par with an E46 M3.
        same here , and most importantly it corners like a real M car.
      1. Stahlgrau's Avatar
        Stahlgrau -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sorena Click here to enlarge
        same here , and most importantly it corners like a real M car.
        It'll be a lot cheaper to get 400whp/400rwtq, too.