Do you care if parts are replicas or original? AC-Schnitzer is actively going after knock-offs

I personally think ACS should ignore the replicas and focus on improving the brand. Remember ACS back in the E36's days?

Originally Posted by Nate@IND

I personally think ACS should ignore the replicas and focus on improving the brand. Remember ACS back in the E36's days?

I was going to say the exact same thing. My memories of ACS are from the 90's. The parts for the e36 M3 were amazing, I especially remember their huge carbon fiber front strut brace.

Now their parts are just hideous. It is a real shame.

I wouldn't mind the replicas, but mainly for me it's because the actual pieces from AC-S are ridiculously expensive...Like when I can buy the replica for about 1200 bucks but the actual kit costs 6000...that's ridiculous...I think...I might just be cheap though >_< haha

Originally Posted by HeroSina

if everyone get repilca parts will AC-Schnitzer or Hamann remain? No and instead of Hamann parts you will get Jiung Young parts !what's the difference between Jioung Young Pong lip and Hamann lip? nothing but what about rims? or tires ? or brakes?
can you trust Young Koang Tesoang?

Didn't really answer my own question as my belief is that there should be a balance. Replica's will always exist, and they should exist. Hamann and AC-Schnitzer might need to stop focusing so much on spoilers and wheels and get to some serious tuning business.

Originally Posted by hworang00

I wouldn't mind the replicas, but mainly for me it's because the actual pieces from AC-S are ridiculously expensive...Like when I can buy the replica for about 1200 bucks but the actual kit costs 6000...that's ridiculous...I think...I might just be cheap though >_< haha

No, you aren't cheap, it is smart. Over in Europe the name brand of "AC-Schnitzer" and "Hamann" mean a lot more than they seem to here.

who cares as long as it's nearly the same? Claus Ettensburger gets enough money even with the knock-off market being stronger than ever.

I don't know who would want to copy the ACS parts anyways. IMHO they pretty much all look like $#@!

Knock off companies are scum that don't have the talent to design, produce and test their own products. Consumers enjoy the lower pricing, however due to loss of sales and revenue (return on investment) from the copycats, the original manufacturers are less likely to produce additional parts for future models. So while consumers think they're getting ahead now they are simply screwing themselves in the future.

I congratulate ACS and wish them the best of luck in keeping their hard work their own.

Originally Posted by MHP LLC

Knock off companies are scum that don't have the talent to design, produce and test their own products. Consumers enjoy the lower pricing, however due to loss of sales and revenue (return on investment) from the copycats, the original manufacturers are less likely to produce additional parts for future models. So while consumers think they're getting ahead now they are simply screwing themselves in the future.

I congratulate ACS and wish them the best of luck in keeping their hard work their own.

I think that that should keep them pushing quality products for a more reasonable price.

edit; them as in BOTH

I am against straight up copies (unless the original company no longer makes them). If a part is too expensive, don't buy it... If there is enough of a market for lower priced alternatives (not copies), someone will step up.

It's somewhat of a personal issue for me; after working in the Japanese aftermarket and seeing plenty of crap passed for quality, I returned to college and became an engineer. By the time I graduated it was clear to me that thanks to china & ebay, the legitimate aftermarket was an industry in decline -- even for upmarket marques whose owners historically appreciated quality. Why put my all into something, get paid a substandard salary, and then face the insult of seeing my designs copied by people who don't understand and used flippantly by people who don't appreciate them?

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

I am against straight up copies (unless the original company no longer makes them). If a part is too expensive, don't buy it... If there is enough of a market for lower priced alternatives (not copies), someone will step up.

So you are telling I should not buy a carbon lip that goes on the bottom of my car for around 200 bucks vs. $1500+ just because it is a copy? How does that make any sense, I should pay $1500 each time it cracks? What is the original is lower quality?

Originally Posted by MHP LLC

Knock off companies are scum that don't have the talent to design, produce and test their own products. Consumers enjoy the lower pricing, however due to loss of sales and revenue (return on investment) from the copycats, the original manufacturers are less likely to produce additional parts for future models. So while consumers think they're getting ahead now they are simply screwing themselves in the future.

I congratulate ACS and wish them the best of luck in keeping their hard work their own.

This is the issue, original equipment makers lose money.

This is the danger of the business though, when making body pieces you will run into this problem. I hardly think this is an issue with say heads, cams, pistons, forced induction, diffs, etc.

If they want to focus on aero parts and milking people on overpriced plastic they have to be prepared to deal with what comes with it.

The argument about consumers screwing themselves is the same thing recording companies used to say, music never slowed down, they had to innovate and evolve their business model.

Originally Posted by Sticky

So you are telling I should not buy a carbon lip that goes on the bottom of my car for around 200 bucks vs. $1500+ just because it is a copy? How does that make any sense, I should pay $1500 each time it cracks? What is the original is lower quality?

If it truly is just an inexpensive carbon lip you (& others) are after, why can't the copycat make their own? Why do you want to buy a copy?

What if the original lip was developed after hours of CFD analysis, wind tunnel testing, and finally real-world testing? Perhaps they found a certain curvature that increased downforce or maybe they found a specific location for additional vents that had minimal impact on drag -- things for which people looking for the best might be willing to pay.

A knock-off company with some vaguely familiar-sounded name with "racing" at the end decides to buy one, then make a mold directly off the part, and then sell replicas for a fraction of the price (their only development cost is the price of the original part and some fiberglass/resin). Does that seem fair? If all you want is a cheap asthetic lip, why don't they just spend the extra couple G's to make their own?

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

If it truly is just an inexpensive carbon lip you (& others) are after, why can't the copycat make their own? Why do you want to buy a copy?

Some do make their own and there are plenty to choose from but I buy the one that I like the best.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

What if the original lip was developed after hours of CFD analysis, wind tunnel testing, and finally real-world testing? Perhaps they found a certain curvature that increased downforce or maybe they found a specific location for additional vents that had minimal impact on drag -- things for which people looking for the best might be willing to pay.

Why if they did? What if they didn't? Most of the parts are just for looks, rarely do I ever seen wind tunnel figures released or how it actually affects your downforce. The M3 GTS lip for $4k would be one where I would agree with you.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

A knock-off company with some vaguely familiar-sounded name with "racing" at the end decides to buy one, then make a mold directly off the part, and then sell replicas for a fraction of the price (their only development cost is the price of the original part and some fiberglass/resin). Does that seem fair? If all you want is a cheap asthetic lip, why don't they just spend the extra couple G's to make their own?

Yes it is fair. Is it fair for a company to mark up their price just because the same Chinese factory making both stamps "Hamann" on one and nothing on the other? Sure is fair, and that is how it works. I'm not going to pay $4k for a lip or $1500 for that matter, they would have the same small market if the knock-off's didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Sticky

This is the issue, original equipment makers lose money.

This is the danger of the business though, when making body pieces you will run into this problem. I hardly think this is an issue with say heads, cams, pistons, forced induction, diffs, etc.

If they want to focus on aero parts and milking people on overpriced plastic they have to be prepared to deal with what comes with it.

The argument about consumers screwing themselves is the same thing recording companies used to say, music never slowed down, they had to innovate and evolve their business model.

Someone is trying to knock our C63 headers off right now and the same has been true of our software for years. Theft is theft. Those who steal can't do it themselves. Without originals they're $#@!ed too.

I don't remember that specific argument (reg the music industry) would you mind filling me in on that?

As far as I remember (and I didn't follow it that closely so I could be wrong) they did very much the same thing as the film industry which was to crackdown on copycats legally first.

I think it's the right first step for AC and hopefully more and more tuners.


Thanks

Originally Posted by e92

I think that that should keep them pushing quality products for a more reasonable price.

edit; them as in BOTH

Copycats aren't innovators, they don't design or create anything, they just copy existing products.

Obviously I feel a lot of the aftermarket is overpriced as well, however there are some products that are worth the $ and there is a reason they cost more. Quality still exists, it's just harder and harder to find these days due to all the lowlife's out there.

Originally Posted by Sticky

Why if they did? What if they didn't? Most of the parts are just for looks, rarely do I ever seen wind tunnel figures released or how it actually affects your downforce.

Because there is some value to that intellectual property.

Here is a very real example: I can make a 335i exhaust that would outflow everything on the market and be nearly as quiet as stock. It would probably take me a solid 120 hours ($12000) to hammer out the complete design. Due to some unique features and low # production, each exhaust (turbos to tip) would cost me $750 in materials and 20 hours of skilled labor ($1000). I could set "MSRP" at $3000 and sell at $2500/ea -- especially after purchasing the top of the line competition ($3000) and showing a ~7hp gain over them despite the 20db difference ($350 dyno time, $100 db meter). ~$18,000 cost (not including car & time spent testing durability)

I could probably sell 10 on the initial run -- no small feat considering existing full exhausts from china can probably be had for 1/3 the price. Unfortunately, I'd be extraordinarily lucky if someone didn't send one of my exhausts to china where they can use subpar materials ($300) and unskilled labor ($100) and sell replicas for less than my own cost to make. I'd then have to try and convince at least another 15 people to pay $1500 more for the original product with the only difference being the less tangible superior materials & quality to convince them. If so, I could break even (and that is "breaking even" when not even including the additional time it took to take orders, deal with suppliers, package/ship, explain $#@! to "pipe is a pipe" jugheads on forums, etc)..

they would have the same small market if the knock-off's didn't exist.

You really believe that everyone willing to buy the original will still pay full price when presented with a functionally equivalent lesser priced option?

Originally Posted by MHP LLC

I don't remember that specific argument (reg the music industry) would you mind filling me in on that?

Just the idea that if people download music we won't have innovation in that sector since artists won't get as much money. It proved to be false.

Originally Posted by MHP LLC

Someone is trying to knock our C63 headers off right now and the same has been true of our software for years. Theft is theft. Those who steal can't do it themselves. Without originals they're $#@!ed too.

I agree with you and yes, that sucks that the headers are being ripped off. But what can you really do about it? What about imitation pieces that are close to the real thing but different enough to not be copies? You see how it becomes complicated. This happens in the wheel industry with CSL "style" rims or BBS LM "style" wheels. Imitation is going to take place when anyone sees an opportunity for a quick buck. I just do not see how this will ever stop in any industry.

Originally Posted by MHP LLC

I think it's the right first step for AC and hopefully more and more tuners.

I think AC Schnitzer should put more time in making quality products rather than being bitter about something they can't stop. The Chinese will make tons of copied parts, not like they can do anything about that.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

I could probably sell 10 on the initial run -- no small feat considering existing full exhausts from china can probably be had for 1/3 the price. Unfortunately, I'd be extraordinarily lucky if someone didn't send one of my exhausts to china where they can use subpar materials ($300) and unskilled labor ($100) and sell replicas for less than my own cost to make. I'd then have to try and convince at least another 15 people to pay $1500 more for the original product with the only difference being the less tangible superior materials & quality to convince them. If so, I could break even (and that is "breaking even" when not even including the additional time it took to take orders, deal with suppliers, package/ship, explain $#@! to "pipe is a pipe" jugheads on forums, etc)..

Exactly, and this is the reason why Vorsteiner takes the pro-active approach of installing their M3 widebody kit at their facility so that they do not send the panels to someone who will just copy them. Still, what is to stop someone from getting that done at their facility and then creating their own molds? There is no way to stop it as long as there is a market for it. At least in the United States and Germany companies are protected and can go after people who are selling blatant copies. You have no control over Taiwan, China, Korea, Mexico, etc.

Plus, parts that are similar in style are legal and do have their market. Plenty of people build Ericsson look alike stuff that is just as good if not better quality but not the exact same thing. So, this aspect will always remain, yet again.

Originally Posted by spdu4ea

You really believe that everyone willing to buy the original will still pay full price when presented with a functionally equivalent lesser priced option?

I believe that price is ultimately the deciding factor and if copies didn't exist that would not force me to pay full price. I want the Ericsson carbon hood, there is no copy of it, that does not mean I will pay full price ($7k) just because a copy doesn't exist.