• Is BMW outgunned? Next Gen C AMG to get 5.5 TT + C63 Black Series may be coming

      We have received some inside information that Mercedes will indeed give the C-class the new 5.5 liter twin turbo V8 for the next generation AMG model. With the M3 getting an N55 variant it almost surely will be significantly overmatched by a C that will put up at least 500 horsepower depending on how MB limits the boost. By BMW limiting themselves to a 6 cylinder and saving the V8 TT's for the larger cars, they have allowed Mercedes a significant advantage as MB does not seem as concerned in holding back the C class as BMW is with holding back the 3 series from stepping on big brother's toes.

      That isn't the worst of it, word is Mercedes will be using an ECU that also will be tuneable. Someone happened to tell us that a last minute decision was made to not use the Siemens/Continental SE controller and stick with Bosch which means a ton of power will be on tap. If this wasn't bad enough for BMW fans who are going to be playing around with BMW anti-tuning measures and less displacement, Mercedes plans to put their 4.6 liter twin turbo V8 in most models as well to replace the 500/550's. Who says the horsepower war is over? Mercedes seems intent to blow BMW away and I would personally like to thank them for doing so, maybe it will wake BMW up.

      C63 Black Series

      A prototype has been spotted running at the AMG Academy in Europe. Fitted with a cage and matte black paint the car was testing with an SLS. Most likely, it will share the top end of the SLS motor. Will it come to market? It would sure seem that they are serious about it.

      Where does this leave BMW?

      Good question, the next gen M5 and M6 will be strong performers taking on the best MB has to offer. However, what about the rest of the lineup? The N63 4.4 TT V8 has the Mercedes 4.6 liter twin turbo V8 covered but the M3 and 3 series are going to struggle against such a formidable opponent.

      This article was originally published in forum thread: Is BMW outgunned? Next Gen C AMG to get 5.5 TT + C63 Black Series may be coming started by Sticky View original post
      Comments 48 Comments
      1. LostMarine's Avatar
        LostMarine -
        If MB had a coupe equivelant to the 3 series id be all over it..
      1. M3_WC's Avatar
        M3_WC -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
        If MB had a coupe equivelant to the 3 series id be all over it..
        They will. A C-class coupe is confirmed for next year.
      1. leftlanefiend's Avatar
        leftlanefiend -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Wonder if Audi can finally take advantage of this.
        First they need to take a class on how to strip a 1,000 pounds or 2 of weight from their cars.
      1. alq80's Avatar
        alq80 -
        Honestly, I wouldn't mind one of the monsters but BMW might put out a 500+ hp turbo I6! That would be the best platform IMO, with a low weight.
      1. fundahl's Avatar
        fundahl -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alq80 Click here to enlarge
        Honestly, I wouldn't mind one of the monsters but BMW might put out a 500+ hp turbo I6! That would be the best platform IMO, with a low weight.
        That could be easily done if BMW wasn't so pussy about turbo-lag. It's annoying to see all this bragging and claims of "full torque from 1400-5000rpm!". Great, so I have all my torque when I cruise, but not when I want to actually participate as a sports car?
      1. alq80's Avatar
        alq80 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
        That could be easily done if BMW wasn't so pussy about turbo-lag. It's annoying to see all this bragging and claims of "full torque from 1400-5000rpm!". Great, so I have all my torque when I cruise, but not when I want to actually participate as a sports car?
        they should do what porsche did and go VTG... (almost) no lag!
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alq80 Click here to enlarge
        they should do what porsche did and go VTG... (almost) no lag!
        The Porsche's still have lag. VTG seems to be more marketing than anything else. The GTR doesn't have VTG yet has less lag than the 997 turbo.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        The Porsche's still have lag. VTG seems to be more marketing than anything else. The GTR doesn't have VTG yet has less lag than the 997 turbo.
        They should do whatever the hell it is Nissan did with the GTR, a friend of mine is in the market and test drove one so he confirmed what the reviews have been saying, he said that thing really does have almost no lag.

        Back on topic I have to say, it does seem like AMG has set the bar quite high for the next generation, I hope BMW and even Audi can match them it's no fun having one car that dominates the others.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        They should do whatever the hell it is Nissan did with the GTR, a friend of mine is in the market and test drove one so he confirmed what the reviews have been saying, he said that thing really does have almost no lag.

        Back on topic I have to say, it does seem like AMG has set the bar quite high for the next generation, I hope BMW and even Audi can match them it's no fun having one car that dominates the others.
        In the past we never had to worry about BMW. Even with smaller motors they made them more efficient, stronger, higher revving, better than the AMG's. That was always we could go back to, even though we didn't have the raw size we had a top engineering effort that was renowned the world over.

        Now, it is just a question of boost. So, will BMW be able to cram enough boost into their 3.0 liter with valvetronic and direct injection to seriously contend with a 5.5 liter twin turbo AMG V8? No, now displacement and boost are working against them.

        Thank God for the Porsche GT3.
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        hahah amen to the Porsche comment, there's a 997 Carrera S sitting next to my 135i in the garage and that thing is just astonishingly good. I got a ride in a GT3 at an autocross and that was enough to show me that it's on an even higher level than our 'lowly' 911.
      1. alq80's Avatar
        alq80 -
        It's true that the 997 turbo has some lag (my father owns one) but in all honesty, there is something about the pull you get from the turbos kicking in and blasting you on your way which NA can never do for me anymore... like always knowing there's more power coming! BUT, BMW can make a 3.0-4.0L I6 with incredible an incredible power:weight ratio... that way they wont hurt the M6 or M5s, but still measure up to the C63.

        Thing is, if the C class is going to be similar in cost but much more powerful, the M3 will be less the appealing option.

        Maybe they will do what noone expects and do what MB are doing; putting in a detuned version of the V8TT into the M3!
      1. MSpiredM3's Avatar
        MSpiredM3 -
        Don't forget that they are planning a pretty good diet for the next gen M3 Click here to enlarge
      1. GT3's Avatar
        GT3 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Thank God for the Porsche GT3.
        Thanks for the sig Click here to enlarge

        I might as well start buying Daimlerchrysler Ag stocks if BMW doesn't put out something to compete with the 5.5 TT AMG's...
        A lightweight 3.0 TT car wont do. They will just be 2 completely different cars... Unless BMW comes up with something to handle power like the 2JZ-GTE supra engine(+36 psi TT 3.0 900whp capable on stock internals)...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alq80 Click here to enlarge
        but in all honesty, there is something about the pull you get from the turbos kicking in and blasting you on your way which NA can never do for me anymore
        Of course, but Porsche gives you both.

        How is BMW going to race in ALMS GT with a boosted 6?
      1. fstop7's Avatar
        fstop7 -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
        Of course, but Porsche gives you both.

        How is BMW going to race in ALMS GT with a boosted 6?
        It wouldn't surprise me if they do a homologation car. Like a run of 50 V8 based F30 M3 CSLs or something.
      1. Itsbrokeagain's Avatar
        Itsbrokeagain -
        hm Benz upps the ante. Interesting to see how this turns out...
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fstop7 Click here to enlarge
        It wouldn't surprise me if they do a homologation car. Like a run of 50 V8 based F30 M3 CSLs or something.
        They tried that back in 2001, ALMS changed the rules.
      1. Yukohama's Avatar
        Yukohama -
        man i hope bmw comes up with a proper response to this and doesnt pussyout...
      1. Remonster's Avatar
        Remonster -
        I hate how all cars are subject to environmentalism these days, why can't the manufacturers realize that the buyers of these cars are usually not dumb enough to get caught up in the sensationalism and would rather buy a performance car that gets a few less miles per gallon if it means getting more performance or having a high revving naturally aspirated engine.

        I love the power of my 135i but there are a lot of times when I miss the responsiveness of my 328i's enigne, it's not just throttle response but it was a lot more enjoyable through bumpy twisty roads.
      1. Sticky's Avatar
        Sticky -
        Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Remonster Click here to enlarge
        I love the power of my 135i but there are a lot of times when I miss the responsiveness of my 328i's enigne
        Exactly, I don't see why BMW could not continue to offer turbo motors and NA motors.

        But... they found a way to use the same motors for both now. Just shortcuts, cutting cost, and profits. That is all that matters.